Everything Bargnani

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

i feel the same way about Tim... even though alot of the time i dont agree with him, i'm not closed minded about listening to an opinion contrary to my own as long as its well-informed.. i appreciate alot of Tim's input, he's really infomative alot of the time... sure, sometimes he's kinda bull-headed, but compared to the rest of the haters he's a breath of fresh air

I just dont like it when people "generalize" - statements like "This is not acceptable" or "The Worst ever" or "Theyll never win".

Blanket statements are narrow-minded. It sounds too authoritative to me and i dont like authority, unless im the one dishing it, hehehe. If you personalize it, thats fine, like this is not acceptable, "to me" or the worst ever, IMO or theyll never win, "the way i see it". blanket statements just make me think, who the f*ck do you think you are??? hehehe sorry, exaggerated a bit.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

as long as i only have to pitch.... its not gay

multi will hold the camera.

[Multipaul]

multi will hold the camera.

It might slip out of my hand tho..

[Tim W.]

No offense taken. I think what we are having is a healthy discussion and its cool. Mind you I never said he only needs to score, I admittedly said that he isn’t that great of a rebounder and defensive player, but he’s not drastically bad as you make him out to be. I don’t excuse him from doing the basics in basketball, theres no need to, because he does them, period. He doesn’t do them to the expectations of critics such as yourself, but bottomline is, he does it. Its not like he stands in the corner while everybody is going after the rebound and defending. He tries but he just doesn’t have the skill to do it, and I think that’s what you have to come to terms with.

I think he's actually a worse rebounder and defender than you realize. I'm not making up the rebounding numbers. He literally is one of the worst rebounding big men, per minute, in the entire league. As for his defense, I am often astounded at how often Bargnani is out of position on defense, and I usually don't even look for it, anymore. There really are very few starting big men in the league who are worse on the defensive end than Bargnani.

I don't care whether or not he doesn't do those things because he can't or won't. It doesn't make a difference. If a player doesn't have the necessary skills to do his job, then you should find someone who can. As for coming to terms with it, I have. And it's why I want him off the team.

Minimum is defined as - the smallest possible quantity. So if you avg 1 rebound, that’s considered as the minimum. I think you maybe thinking “below average”. Coz Bargnani is a below average rebounder, that has been established a long time ago. But like you said, you’ve come to accept that. I think this is where my frustration comes in. You only nitpick the areas that you want to, you generalize the category as “defense” yet you don’t want to consider all the aspects that constitute the word. Blocks and Steals are 2 of the end results of a good defensive effort. Creating a turnover, offensive player passing the ball and missed shot are the other three. Because basketball is a team sport, you cant really quantify good one on one defense unless you actually watch the game. Bargnani is not a good defender, but he defends. And again, its goes back to the skillset.

Ok, competent. How many rebounds would you say is competent?

When I say minimum, I'm not referring to the smallest possible quantity, I'm referring to the smallest acceptable quantity. And when you are literally one of the worst rebounders not only for your position, but for all big men in the league a nd one of the worst rebounding 7 footers of All-Time, I would definitely classify that as below the acceptable requirements.

As for numbers for rebounds? I hate to pick an exact number, but for argument's sake, I'd like to see him grab AT LEAST 7 boards a game for the number of minutes he plays. And while it may not seem like a lot more than he's averaging now, he's the same number of rebounds away from 7 as he is to 4. And that would still make him a below average rebounder.

As for blocks and steals they are sometimes, but not necessarily, related to good defense. You can get a ton of steals but be a bad defender just as you can get a ton of blocks but be a bad defender. And visa versa. Two of the best defenders of all time were Joe Dumars and Dennis Rodman. Neither one got a whole lot of steals or blocks.

And Bargnani is not a good defender. That we agree on. And I don't believe you can win consistently if you have a big man who is a poor defender playing a big role. It's as simple as that.

Its not Tiger Woods per say, it’s the general connotation that youre putting onto a certain group of individuals. Not because he’s 7 feet you should expect him to rebound. It’s a skill, which he is not great at.

I expect PGs to be able to run an offense and big men to be able to defend and rebound. That's not stereotype, it's simply a philosophy I strictly believe through years and years of watching, playing and studying basketball. In my opinion, those two are necessary ingredients to playing winning basketball.

Again, 5 players on a team. The Raptors is a bad defensive team, sure Bargs contributes to that, but even if you take out Bargs, its still a bad defensive team. Here:

Well, Andrea Bargnani didn't play, and the Raptors' defense was still terrible against the Mavs on Sunday. So there goes that theory. Speaking of defense, the Raptors shot 52 percent last week but won just one of their four games, which was actually a pretty impressive victory over the Bulls.

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/powerra...k18/index.html

Like I said, don’t ride the fence. Say Bargs is a bad rebounder/defender, but don’t make him out like the Raps are bad because of him. Team game. Team game. Team game.

I've never, ever, ever said that Bargnani is the reason the Raptors are a bad team or a bad defending team. In fact I have said the opposite. The Raptors are a young, inexperienced team that simply doesn't have a lot of talent. It's why I though the preseason talk of them possibly vying for a playoff spot was ridiculous. I predicted 27 wins, and it looks like I was overly optimistic about that.

I think there are only a small handful of players on the Raptors who I see being worth keeping around, long term. Davis, Amir and DeRozan. The rest are completely expendable, in my opinion. And Davis and DeRozan are still so young that they still need to make big improvements before either one would start on a contender.

As for the Dallas game, I don't see how one game proves anything. It's a problem with a lot of Raptor fans that they want to make judgements based on far too small a sample size. We saw a lot of things from that game. We saw that the Raptors CAN play good defense, as they showed in the first half. We also saw that the team has absolutely no depth, is incredibly inexperienced, has far less talent than Dallas and that very few players on the team can consistently do ANYTHING well.

I realize that Bargnani is not the only problem, but he's certainly a big one, and he's one of the few that seem to be a foundation for the team. Weems' inconsistencies don't bother me because he might not even be re-signed. Barbosa can play great one game and hurt you the next, but I don't care because he probably would have been traded before the deadline were he healthy. Bargnani, on the other hand, is signed to a long term contract, plays more minutes than anyone on the team, and seems to be an important part of the team long term. And that's a problem, for all the reasons I've detailed.

[Tim W.]

My apologies for the “sap” name-calling. That was rude and inappropriate. I guess I just got too hot under the collar for a minute.

No problem. I was a little hot under the collar with my initial response.

I dealt with a lot of the rest of your post in my previous one, so I'll skip down...

This is why coaches call double-teams. If a team is good enough defensively, they are able to mask another player’s “inability” to defend properly. There’s also things such as “help defense” and “traps”.

I don’t entirely agree that opposing teams ISO whoever Bargs is guarding. Most if not all the big men are leaned on to score anyways. Howard, Gasol, Bogut, Duncan. And ISO is a standard play, not because its Bargnani who’s guarding them. Bargnani dropped 29 on Portland, 29 on the spurs, 29 on Boston. Does that make Camby, Duncan and Perkins bad defensive players coz Bargs scored a boat on them? Im pretty sure at some point in those games Bargs got ISOs against these guys. Howard dropped 26 and then 29 on the spurs this year, does that make Duncan a really bad defensive player?

When Okafor scored 1 point against the Raps 2 days ago? and Noah 7 pts when he averages 13? Or when Randolph goes for 8 of 24? Who do you attribute these to on the Raps side?

Double teams are a necessary evil. The problem with them is they open up other spots on the floor and make the defense scramble, which can be taken advantage of. If a player is simply too good or is hot, then double teams are necessary, but otherwise, you'd rather not double team simply to cover someone's defensive weakness.

And I'm not simply talking about one-on-one. I've seen countless games where teams will draw Amir or Davis to the other side of the court, and then make Bargnani the help defender, knowing he's bad at it. And I'm not the only one who's noticed it. Jack Armstrong and Leo Rautins have commented on it at times, about other teams going at Bargnani. I suggest looking out for it.

As for examples like Howard having a big game on Duncan not making Duncan a bad defender, you're exactly right. You have to look at a larger sample. If DUncan got lit up all the time, THEN you might have a case that he's a poor man-on-man defender. Of course, in DUncan's case, he's a great help defender, which Bargnani is not.

Oh yes, I complain but I cant really control it. You have your own opinions and so do I. I think the difference is the way our “standards” differ. But I honor that. I acknowledge what you say and where youre coming from. I may not agree, but I acknowledge.

Liability, not entirely. He has lapses but not a liability. Prevent from becoming a great team? Yes, if he’s left to carry the burden. If they build WITH and not around him, nothing can hold them back from being a great team.

Sorry man but im quite exhausted. Ill just agree to disagree with you.

I can sometimes be passionate in debates, but I try and keep things civilized and appreciate you doing the same.

[Tim W.]

Its healthy. Although i admit i sometimes despise Tim, his arguments are very valid and worthy. But im sure he's a nice guy, in his own way! hahaha just kidding Tim. Im sure youre a very opinionated nice guy.

Although i dont agree sometimes, doesnt mean im always correct! hehehe

Thanks. And I come off A LOT more serious on the internet than I do in real life. The two words that have been used to describe me the most, in real life, are easy-going and a joker. I realize that is not how I come across on here. It's funny how that works.

[Tim W.]

I just dont like it when people "generalize" - statements like "This is not acceptable" or "The Worst ever" or "Theyll never win".

Blanket statements are narrow-minded. It sounds too authoritative to me and i dont like authority, unless im the one dishing it, hehehe. If you personalize it, thats fine, like this is not acceptable, "to me" or the worst ever, IMO or theyll never win, "the way i see it". blanket statements just make me think, who the f*ck do you think you are??? hehehe sorry, exaggerated a bit.

Fair enough. Ironically, generalizations also bug me. I think I do it when I get frustrated in a discussion. I guess it's my way of avoiding insults.

[.40 Cal Flakes]

Gentlemen the previous 2-3 pages of dialogue between tbihis and Tim W. is how it's done. Good on you guys.

They don't necessarily agree with much the other has to say but they kept it civil and mature and respected each others opinions while still being passionate about their stances.

[Tim W.]

Gentlemen the previous 2-3 pages of dialogue between tbihis and Tim W. is how it's done. Good on you guys.

They don't necessarily agree with much the other has to say but they kept it civil and mature and respected each others opinions while still being passionate about their stances.

Screw you!

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Gentlemen the previous 2-3 pages of dialogue between tbihis and Tim W. is how it's done. Good on you guys.

They don't necessarily agree with much the other has to say but they kept it civil and mature and respected each others opinions while still being passionate about their stances.

shut up, we had a moment there! hahaha

[mcHAPPY]

Gentlemen the previous 2-3 pages of dialogue between tbihis and Tim W. is how it's done. Good on you guys.

They don't necessarily agree with much the other has to say but they kept it civil and mature and respected each others opinions while still being passionate about their stances.

I don't like how they stayed on point, did not try to change subjects, did not use insults, and stayed respectful.

[.40 Cal Flakes]

Screw you!

shut up, we had a moment there! hahaha

Oops my bad!

[Tim W.]

I don't like how they stayed on point, did not try to change subjects, did not use insults, and stayed respectful.

Your an idiot.

[grindhouse]

I think bargnani cripples our team on both ends of the floor. Everyone agrees about his defense but I want people to take a look at what happens on the offensive side of the ball. His shot selection is poor and when he touches the ball 9 times out of 10 he is going to shot it or try and drive. The basketball has to move inorder to keep the defense off balanced and him taking a high volume of shots is not productive for a team. Winning teams constantly preach sharing the ball

[RaptorsFan4Life]

I think bargnani cripples our team on both ends of the floor. Everyone agrees about his defense but I want people to take a look at what happens on the offensive side of the ball. His shot selection is poor and when he touches the ball 9 times out of 10 he is going to shot it or try and drive. The basketball has to move inorder to keep the defense off balanced and him taking a high volume of shots is not productive for a team. Winning teams constantly preach sharing the ball

Andrea Bargnani 25.8 PT .500 of 19.6 FG .833 of 6.0 FT .375 of 3.2 3P 5.2/0.4 RB 1.8 AS 0.0 BL 0.5 ST 2.8 TO 3.2 PF 37.8 MN 10/10 GS (last 10 games)


Andrea Bargnani 24.0 PT .516 of 18.2 FG .778 of 5.4 FT .333 of 3.0 3P 5.4/0.0 RB 1.6 AS 0.0 BL 0.6 ST 2.6 TO 3.4 PF 36.5 MN 5/5 GS (last 5 games)

Brags when healthy is a pretty efficient player.