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  • Bosh pussied out on the team. When he could have returned from injury and was cleared by the doctor to play, he decided not to return.
    Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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    • RaptorDan wrote: View Post
      Bosh pussied out on the team. When he could have returned from injury and was cleared by the doctor to play, he decided not to return.
      It's easy to say he pussied out on the team from your armchair. It's quite another to have actually had your face bashed in and then go out and play. I had a similar injury from basketball, but not nearly as bad. I don't blame the guy one bit. And I never heard the doctors cleared him to play. Besides, who cares if he didn't play if he can't carry a team? It seems to me people want to call him overrated except when it's convenient for their argument.
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      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
        It's easy to say he pussied out on the team from your armchair. It's quite another to have actually had your face bashed in and then go out and play. I had a similar injury from basketball, but not nearly as bad. I don't blame the guy one bit. And I never heard the doctors cleared him to play. Besides, who cares if he didn't play if he can't carry a team? It seems to me people want to call him overrated except when it's convenient for their argument.
        It was his minor tweaked ankle after the All-Star break. He waited almost 2 weeks after the doctors cleared him before deciding to play.

        I realized too late that I took your bait. You are a very good instigator. BTW, I never called him over-rated. He was/is a very good player. I just hate the guy. I hope he gets a bladder infection and can't pee for a week.
        Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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        • RaptorDan wrote: View Post
          It was his minor tweaked ankle after the All-Star break. He waited almost 2 weeks after the doctors cleared him before deciding to play.

          I realized too late that I took your bait. You are a very good instigator. BTW, I never called him over-rated. He was/is a very good player. I just hate the guy. I hope he gets a bladder infection and can't pee for a week.
          It's a talent, what can I say.

          As for the ankle, I really hate to judge players on things like that because a) they're the only ones who really know how it feels and b) I've never gotten Grant Hill's career out of my head. I'll commend a guy for playing with an injury, but I'll rarely criticize a guy for not playing with one. I've seen too many players hurt their careers by doing so.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • I know this has been discussed already, but bear with me (another Bargs at SF thread)

            So how about an agreed statement of facts:
            1) Bargs can't or won't rebound
            2) He's an atrocious help defender for a centre, causing the entire defence to break down
            3) We already have two excellent power forwards in Davis and AJ, and a very useful backup in Reggie (if he re-ups)
            Bargnani will be a defensive nightmare no matter who he guards, but it says here that having him guard SF's is the least bad option. For one, he won't be needed nor expected to get rebounds. Second, his length means he can play off his opponent a bit, guarding against their ability to penetrate. Third, the help defence issue which is so vital for a centre is not nearly as much of an issue at the SF position. Fourth, Bargnani will be able to get up his shot much easier against SFs, and will be able to post them up. And a triplet towers lineup of Davis, Bargnani and whichever centre they sign or draft or trade for would be pretty nice. My first inclination would be to trade Il Mago, but if that doesn't happen, I think the best solution is to have him play SF. Thoughts?

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            • Dude, it's been talked about in the Bargnani thread, so I had to move it to this thread.

              If Bargnani can barely keep up with 4's and 5's in the league, what exactly makes you think he can keep up with the swings in this league?

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              • He can't but then his rebounding will not look so horrible


                "It's not the player man, its the position"


                He looks so funny when he tries to play defence on a fastbreak, well most of the time he doesn't even realize its a fastbreak, but when he does... he looks even too slow for a center. Most centers would block or stand their ground, he does neither... so if he looks horrible defending fastbreakes as centre, just imagine the spectacle as a SF.

                Andrea is mobile for a 7 footer, but he is not very mobile for a SF. Not even close.
                Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Thu May 19, 2011, 11:57 AM.

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                • MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
                  He can't but then his rebounding will not look so horrible


                  "It's not the player man, its the position"


                  He looks so funny when he tries to play defence on a fastbreak, well most of the time he doesn't even realize its a fastbreak, but when he does... he looks even too slow for a center. Most centers would block or stand their ground, he does neither... so if he looks horrible defending fastbreakes as centre, just imagine the spectacle as a SF.

                  Andrea is mobile for a 7 footer, but he is not very mobile for a SF. Not even close.
                  As an SF, he will be able to play more of a three-point and mid-range game on offence, which will help him get back on dee faster than if he were playing closer to the rim. This will help negate the fast-break problems. Look, I'm the first to say this guy should be traded. But as a plan B, I'm talking harm reduction, much like the safe injection sites in Vancouver. If the Raps have to shoot Il Mago into their arm, then at least let's try to limit the harm done to Raptor society.

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                  • MangoKid wrote: View Post
                    Dude, it's been talked about in the Bargnani thread, so I had to move it to this thread.

                    If Bargnani can barely keep up with 4's and 5's in the league, what exactly makes you think he can keep up with the swings in this league?
                    All I'm saying is that he'll do less damage defensively by guarding swings than he has "anchoring" our defence at the centre position. And if he were to play PF, the same issues of help defence would crop up, plus PFs have to actually rebound the ball and prevent their mark from rebounding the ball. My solution (assuming we get a centre, which I can't imagine us not getting) eases the logjam at PF, allowing Amir and Ed to get lots of minutes (Amir can spend 12 minutes a game playing centre, leaving the bulk of the PF minutes to Davis), presents matchup problems for the other team when we're on offence, and "hides" Bargnani as much as possible on dee. One of the few things Andrea does well is he avoids biting on pump fakes. That, coupled with his length, will neutralize SOME of the damage that will be done to him by the swings. And I for one can live far more easily with an SF occasionally going off on him than with our entire defensive schme (such as it is) breaking down because of his cluelessness in terms of help dee.

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                    • LeeZ wrote: View Post
                      All I'm saying is that he'll do less damage defensively by guarding swings than he has "anchoring" our defence at the centre position. And if he were to play PF, the same issues of help defence would crop up, plus PFs have to actually rebound the ball and prevent their mark from rebounding the ball. My solution (assuming we get a centre, which I can't imagine us not getting) eases the logjam at PF, allowing Amir and Ed to get lots of minutes (Amir can spend 12 minutes a game playing centre, leaving the bulk of the PF minutes to Davis), presents matchup problems for the other team when we're on offence, and "hides" Bargnani as much as possible on dee. One of the few things Andrea does well is he avoids biting on pump fakes. That, coupled with his length, will neutralize SOME of the damage that will be done to him by the swings. And I for one can live far more easily with an SF occasionally going off on him than with our entire defensive schme (such as it is) breaking down because of his cluelessness in terms of help dee.
                      How about a SF constantly going off on him? If players like Josh Smith have problems playing man to man defence at the 3, what chance does Bargs have? Furthermore there are much more legitimate scoring and play makers at the 3 than the 5. Lastly who is suppose to replace bargs at 5? Everyone else is under size. So you want an automatic defensive liability every night at the 3 and the 5 just to compensate Bargs terrible defence and rebounding?

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                      • Krix wrote: View Post
                        How about a SF constantly going off on him? If players like Josh Smith have problems playing man to man defence at the 3, what chance does Bargs have? Furthermore there are much more legitimate scoring and play makers at the 3 than the 5. Lastly who is suppose to replace bargs at 5? Everyone else is under size. So you want an automatic defensive liability every night at the 3 and the 5 just to compensate Bargs terrible defence and rebounding?
                        As I indicated, this is predicated on us getting a centre (and a good defensive one at that) from outside the current roster. And Bargs lateral quickness is underrated. He's as slow as a slug going north-south, but east-west has been able to hold his own against even PG's on switches, using his height and arm length to neutralize their speed. And even if he does get consistently beat (much like, say, Turk does playing SF in Orlando), if we have a good defensive centre and PF in Davis/AJ, the damage will be mitigated. I think it's the lesser of three evils. Anything to get him away from the basket. Do you REALLY think he'll be any better at PF than he was at centre? If so, tell me what kind of meds you're on so I can go get me some.

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                        • No I don't think he would be better at PF, I think his best position is where he is at, which is C. The fact that he guarded against a PG one or two possessions in his career doesn't mean he can consistently do it. The example you gave of mitigating Bargs getting consistently beat at SF is to get a Dwight Howard, because outside of Orlando no one wanted to touch Turk with a ten foot pole. Even if not Dwight Howard how exactly are we suppose to get a good legitimate center?

                          As I said earlier I think the lesser of three evils is to leave him at C, everyone raves about his man to man d (which I think is overrated). Call me on taking crazy pills but I think Bargs guarding the Boguts, Gasols, and Howards of this world is a lot less scary than guarding the LeBrons, Durants, and 'Melos.

                          Bargnani is no doubt flawed, but he is the least flawed at C, there's no point anymore trying to build a whole team around/compensate him. It's just not worth it, IMO.

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                          • Krix wrote: View Post
                            No I don't think he would be better at PF, I think his best position is where he is at, which is C. The fact that he guarded against a PG one or two possessions in his career doesn't mean he can consistently do it. The example you gave of mitigating Bargs getting consistently beat at SF is to get a Dwight Howard, because outside of Orlando no one wanted to touch Turk with a ten foot pole. Even if not Dwight Howard how exactly are we suppose to get a good legitimate center?

                            As I said earlier I think the lesser of three evils is to leave him at C, everyone raves about his man to man d (which I think is overrated). Call me on taking crazy pills but I think Bargs guarding the Boguts, Gasols, and Howards of this world is a lot less scary than guarding the LeBrons, Durants, and 'Melos.

                            Bargnani is no doubt flawed, but he is the least flawed at C, there's no point anymore trying to build a whole team around/compensate him. It's just not worth it, IMO.
                            Krix, if it were just his duties guarding the opposing 5 I'd agree with you, but your centre HAS to be your team's defensive anchor and best help defender, over and above just guarding his man. I continue to insist that he's less harmful to us getting torched by an SF some nights than by ALWAYS getting torched at the team's pivital position. But I think we can agree on one thing: this team would be better off without him (provided that we get at least something halfway decent in return). I wholeheartedly agree that we shouldn't build around or compensate for him. I just offered up my "solution" in the event that we're stuck with him.

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                            • I agree with Krix, but just to expand on that, Bargnani is a liability no matter where he plays. Is he MORE of a liability at center than other positions? I don't think so. Either way he's going to cause problems for the defense. However good the guy is offensively (and he's not as good as some seem to think), he does seem to consistently hurt the team when he's on the floor. You can say "if you can't trade him", but why wouldn't you be able to trade him? Colangelo traded Turkoglu and got a pretty decent return for him. And Turkoglu was making more money and was much older. I think the only option IS to trade him. Period.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                              • LOL, even when he takes a 3 pointer from the arc as a C, he is still far from the first one back.

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