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  • I don't think we should move him for nothing either. But I do think he has value in the league, and based on his contract, if he doesn't grow, his value drops significantly. I wrote a ridiculously long post a few months back were I looked at his production vs. salary and came away with him be about worth his money (probably a little bit less) unfortunately we pay him more ever year, which means that if his production goes up than he remains a reasonable contract, however, if he doesn't his value drops significantly. At the time I wrote if you are going to trade bargnani sooner is better than later. To be honest I think Coangelo will miss that opportunity if he doesn't move bargnani before christmas. After that we are probably stuck with him whether we like it or not. Having bargs come off the bench isn't necessarily a bad play except that he makes 9m, 10m, 11m, & 12m. The Lakers don't even pay someone that much to come off the bench! (Odom makes 8.9m and has a TEAM option of 8.2m after that) That's Jason Terry territory. And If we had 10 consecutive 50+ seasons and were sniffing the conference finals pretty much every year, i'd be all for it (probably) but we aren't. Barg's 12m coming off the bench? That cannot be a good thing.


    EDIT: I am curious to see how barg's plays for Casey as well, unfortunately, if he tanks we can't take a mullligan. However, I am sooo curious that I said the deadline for a bargs deal is X-Mas when really in reality it probably should be this very second! Barg's is like nose candy, it's probably going to ruin your life, but it might not so you kind have to try it, over and over and over again!
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Wed Jun 22, 2011, 02:59 PM.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    • saints91 wrote: View Post
      I would prefer to see what Casey can do with Bargnani. I don't think the raptors are getting offers for him that would benefit our team. He does have value on this team. I think most of you are being a little over critical of him. I don't think we should give him away for nothing.

      If he doesn't change his play on the defensive end, and we aren't getting fair value, I think we should move him out of the starting line up. Detlef Schrempf role.
      Detlef was a better rebounder and defender than Bargnani is. He was also a better passer and was better at getting to the line. That's why he could play such a big role on a contender. He was never a liability.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      • heinz57 wrote: View Post
        why? his reaction to the thread was exactly what i was hoping for.
        I'm here to please.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
          I don't think we should move him for nothing either. But I do think he has value in the league, and based on his contract, if he doesn't grow, his value drops significantly. I wrote a ridiculously long post a few months back were I looked at his production vs. salary and came away with him be about worth his money (probably a little bit less) unfortunately we pay him more ever year, which means that if his production goes up than he remains a reasonable contract, however, if he doesn't his value drops significantly. At the time I wrote if you are going to trade bargnani sooner is better than later. To be honest I think Coangelo will miss that opportunity if he doesn't move bargnani before christmas. After that we are probably stuck with him whether we like it or not. Having bargs come off the bench isn't necessarily a bad play except that he makes 9m, 10m, 11m, & 12m. The Lakers don't even pay someone that much to come off the bench! (Odom makes 8.9m and has a TEAM option of 8.2m after that) That's Jason Terry territory. And If we had 10 consecutive 50+ seasons and were sniffing the conference finals pretty much every year, i'd be all for it (probably) but we aren't. Barg's 12m coming off the bench? That cannot be a good thing.


          EDIT: I am curious to see how barg's plays for Casey as well, unfortunately, if he tanks we can't take a mullligan. However, I am sooo curious that I said the deadline for a bargs deal is X-Mas when really in reality it probably should be this very second! Barg's is like nose candy, it's probably going to ruin your life, but it might not so you kind have to try it, over and over and over again!
          This is basically how I feel. But I'm more like Tim with the certainty and all...Actually, I'm more certain, almost like I know giving White Swan another chance won't work. Dude was my favourite player on the team for awhile, too. And when it doesn't work out, his trade value will plummet (we will likely get Biyombo, and we got that tough, defensive minded coach to light a fire under his ass; all excuses will have been exhausted), and then we'll be forced to trade him for nothing. There's a bit of a Catch-22 here.

          Bargnani will only have a legitmate chance of turning things

          An open question for anyone: Has any team gone so far out of its way for a player? (It'll be 6 seasons, assuming we keep Bargnani. SIX SEASONS!!) Has it worked?

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          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
            Hopefully Casey is towing company line to raise his trade value.

            http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelo...ndrea-bargnani
            That's what I was thinking - also there is a 20% chance he will return to Toronto next year if there is no deal for him and if so you have to be prepared to work with him.
            "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
              Precious.

              Comment


              • WhatWhat wrote: View Post
                This is basically how I feel. But I'm more like Tim with the certainty and all...Actually, I'm more certain, almost like I know giving White Swan another chance won't work. Dude was my favourite player on the team for awhile, too. And when it doesn't work out, his trade value will plummet (we will likely get Biyombo, and we got that tough, defensive minded coach to light a fire under his ass; all excuses will have been exhausted), and then we'll be forced to trade him for nothing. There's a bit of a Catch-22 here.

                Bargnani will only have a legitmate chance of turning things

                An open question for anyone: Has any team gone so far out of its way for a player? (It'll be 6 seasons, assuming we keep Bargnani. SIX SEASONS!!) Has it worked?
                By going out of there way you mean drafting him to play defensive center to a scoring PF (bosh). Asking him to put on muscle and size to guard one on one in the post which he did and then try him at the 3 with the added bulk slowing him down which was added for his first out of position request. None of us know what goes on behind the scenes but given Dre's body language I'm pretty sure Mitchell was never a nurturing/player development type coach. Every missed shot or score against him had him looking over his shoulder at Sam and sitting on the bench the first 2 years. Watching Bosh isolation after isolation (terrible passer) and being asked to always guard the other teams better offensive big allowing Bosh to conserve energy for the offensive end.

                Don't get me wrong I too question Dre's desire and heart. When the tools are there and not being used you have to wonder whether the love of the game is there. BUT all this talk about everything being handed to him gets blown out of per-portion all the time. Is it his fault he was drafter number 1? Is it his fault he was asked to play out of position?

                Think about it from the other side of a second. Imagine coming into a league where your a match up offensive nightmare power forward who can stretch the defense. Problem is the Raptors already have a great scoring power forward who was the franchise corner stone. So rather then focus on your strengths and working on your weakness's (getting a big man coach with some experience or reputation) being forced to effected the game with your weakness's and not use your strengths as a player with a similar mold is ahead of you in seniority and at the time talent.

                I'm still willing to give the guy a chance as the return is worth the risk. For as much as Dre has let down or aggravated the franchise/fan base the franchise put him in a situation that was almost destined to fail. He wants to be here (don't know why with the way the media has treated him) and doesn't complain (the report this summer about role is not worth mentioning) I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.

                Comment


                • RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                  By going out of there way you mean drafting him to play defensive center to a scoring PF (bosh). Asking him to put on muscle and size to guard one on one in the post which he did and then try him at the 3 with the added bulk slowing him down which was added for his first out of position request. None of us know what goes on behind the scenes but given Dre's body language I'm pretty sure Mitchell was never a nurturing/player development type coach. Every missed shot or score against him had him looking over his shoulder at Sam and sitting on the bench the first 2 years. Watching Bosh isolation after isolation (terrible passer) and being asked to always guard the other teams better offensive big allowing Bosh to conserve energy for the offensive end.

                  Don't get me wrong I too question Dre's desire and heart. When the tools are there and not being used you have to wonder whether the love of the game is there. BUT all this talk about everything being handed to him gets blown out of per-portion all the time. Is it his fault he was drafter number 1? Is it his fault he was asked to play out of position?

                  Think about it from the other side of a second. Imagine coming into a league where your a match up offensive nightmare power forward who can stretch the defense. Problem is the Raptors already have a great scoring power forward who was the franchise corner stone. So rather then focus on your strengths and working on your weakness's (getting a big man coach with some experience or reputation) being forced to effected the game with your weakness's and not use your strengths as a player with a similar mold is ahead of you in seniority and at the time talent.

                  I'm still willing to give the guy a chance as the return is worth the risk. For as much as Dre has let down or aggravated the franchise/fan base the franchise put him in a situation that was almost destined to fail. He wants to be here (don't know why with the way the media has treated him) and doesn't complain (the report this summer about role is not worth mentioning) I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.
                  Finally some sanity. Its ok and natural to be frustrated by AB. In no way shape or form has he lived up to his potential. But to suggest hes had everything designed around him for the last 6 years is completely ridiculus. Maybe the last year - but even then, "designed around him" wuold have meant a defensive 5 beside him, which he has never had.

                  He has very much dissapointed me on the offensive end in terms of clutch scoring. Id be totally open to moving him for the right piece. But to suggest he belongs on the scrap heap is just ridiculus.

                  Comment


                  • RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                    I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.
                    I'm "running him out of town" not because he is arguably or best player, but because he has arguably the worst contract. That's right, I said worst. Calderon has two years left bargs has 4. Four more years, with each year he is guaranteed to make 1m more than the previous season. He is barely earning his money now. BARELY. If you want more details I've written a large article on it here From a contract vs. production/efficiency Bargnani looks remarkably unremarkable.

                    But I stand by the don't trade him for nothing. try and get value. however, I think that as the season goes on his value goes down down down down down. But I will apologize if I am wrong wrong wrong.
                    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                    Comment


                    • nobody is "running him out of town" we're just doing whats best for the franchise. his greatest worth to us right now, is in what he can fetch us. be it a high draft pick or young talent. no matter what happens, deep down, we all just want to see him finally dance like nobody is watching.
                      @sweatpantsjer

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                      • tim w. wrote: View Post
                        ftw!
                        “I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, he’s listed as Chu Chu. I think he’s worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name.” -Tim W.

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                        • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                          I'm "running him out of town" not because he is arguably or best player, but because he has arguably the worst contract. That's right, I said worst. Calderon has two years left bargs has 4. Four more years, with each year he is guaranteed to make 1m more than the previous season. He is barely earning his money now. BARELY. If you want more details I've written a large article on it here From a contract vs. production/efficiency Bargnani looks remarkably unremarkable.

                          But I stand by the don't trade him for nothing. try and get value. however, I think that as the season goes on his value goes down down down down down. But I will apologize if I am wrong wrong wrong.
                          Worst meaning biggest contract I can see where your going. I for one am not big on the Raptors having cap space as it's no where close to a desired location and as everyone is aware free agency is where you get the most overpaid players (especially when signing with the Raps ie. Hedo and Kapono to name a few). I'd rather see BC move expiring deals for players with a few years left on their contract rather then have the flexibility to sign fee agents. When is the last time we got a FA worth mentioning so whats with the desire to have cap space other then over pay mediocre players to come? With the new CBA maybe this will change but that remains to be seen or discussed at this point.

                          At least your reasonable saying that you think and willing to say your wrong if he plays well. Some people on this forum seem to think there thoughts are facts and couldn't be wrong. Debating is what makes this place great but people have to be reasonable as well.

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                          • ceez wrote: View Post
                            nobody is "running him out of town" we're just doing whats best for the franchise. his greatest worth to us right now, is in what he can fetch us. be it a high draft pick or young talent. no matter what happens, deep down, we all just want to see him finally dance like nobody is watching.
                            We're just doing whats best for the franchise is opinionated not fact. His greatest worth to us would be to play well and improve his value if he is to be traded.... Not what he can "fetch" us now.... High draft pick next year you perhaps have an argument, this year your getting no where near top dollar for the investment. And refrain from using words like always, never or all unless your sure of it. The majority would be better word choice then all as it's not accurate to the topic!

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                            • Bargnani doesn't care about defense he puts way to much emphasis on offense you can tell by his comments. You cant change his mindset at this point in his career. Casey will start hating this guy as much as most fans 5 games into the season. Anybody think the dirk effect has something p do with BC hiring Casey ossicle thinking he can turn barge into a dirk type player?

                              Comment


                              • RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                                By going out of there way you mean drafting him to play defensive center to a scoring PF (bosh). Asking him to put on muscle and size to guard one on one in the post which he did and then try him at the 3 with the added bulk slowing him down which was added for his first out of position request. None of us know what goes on behind the scenes but given Dre's body language I'm pretty sure Mitchell was never a nurturing/player development type coach. Every missed shot or score against him had him looking over his shoulder at Sam and sitting on the bench the first 2 years. Watching Bosh isolation after isolation (terrible passer) and being asked to always guard the other teams better offensive big allowing Bosh to conserve energy for the offensive end.

                                Don't get me wrong I too question Dre's desire and heart. When the tools are there and not being used you have to wonder whether the love of the game is there. BUT all this talk about everything being handed to him gets blown out of per-portion all the time. Is it his fault he was drafter number 1? Is it his fault he was asked to play out of position?

                                Think about it from the other side of a second. Imagine coming into a league where your a match up offensive nightmare power forward who can stretch the defense. Problem is the Raptors already have a great scoring power forward who was the franchise corner stone. So rather then focus on your strengths and working on your weakness's (getting a big man coach with some experience or reputation) being forced to effected the game with your weakness's and not use your strengths as a player with a similar mold is ahead of you in seniority and at the time talent.

                                I'm still willing to give the guy a chance as the return is worth the risk. For as much as Dre has let down or aggravated the franchise/fan base the franchise put him in a situation that was almost destined to fail. He wants to be here (don't know why with the way the media has treated him) and doesn't complain (the report this summer about role is not worth mentioning) I don't see why everyone wants to run our arguable best player out of town.
                                On the surface, this seems like a good argument. Unfortunately, it's really not. Has Bargnani been allowed to play his "natural" position? No. Should it matter? Not at all. David Lee, who is far less suited to play center than Bargnani made the All-Star team with New York doing it. Al Horford, who's also far less suited to play center also made the All-Star team playing center. Dirk Nowitzki has also made the All-Star team while being Dallas' starting center.

                                Bargnani has averaged 30 mpg over the course of his career, and this despite being one of the worst rebounding and defending big men in the entire league. How ANYONE can say he hasn't been given a far better chance than just about anyone in the history of the league? 99% of NBA players would KILL for the chances that Bargnani has received. And the majority of NBA players who have succeeded, did so with far fewer advantages than Bargnani has had.

                                And this has absolutely nothing to do with him being a #1 pick. The only people that are even bringing this up are the people that are making excuses for him. No one cares. In fact, him being a #1 pick has probably been his BIGGEST advantage, because it's given him more opportunities than a player drafted lower would have been given.

                                I'm just so sick of these excuses people come up with to explain why Bargnani has basically become the player he should have been expected when he was drafted. I didn't like the selection from day one because of two fatal flaws in his game. Lack of desire to defend and rebound. What's stunning to me is that's it's 5 years later and people still seem puzzled that he isn't even a decent rebounder or defender.

                                It's like a Kevin James movie. The reviews are horrible, all the reviews say it sucks, the trailer looks horrible and he's never made a decent movie. Why on earth would anyone go to the movie and think that it would be anything BUT awful?

                                Bargnani has never shown an ability to rebound consistently. Ever. He's never shown an ability to be even a consistently average defender. Ever. Yet people want to hold out hope that he just needs one more year and he'll get it. He's had FIVE F**KING YEARS!!!!!!!! You're not being optimistic. You're being insane.

                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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