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  • lol@ bargs being able to put up a ton of points.

    JR Smith can put up a ton of points; maybe Arenas still...but not Bargs. Give me a friggin break

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    • Tim W. wrote: View Post
      I disagree with him. You need good instincts to be a defensive stopper. You can train someone to be a decent defender, but not a stopper. You need a certain mentality and instincts to really be a stopper.
      I agree.

      My post was a little tongue in cheek.

      Luckily all that is needed from Bargnani at this point is decent - expectations cannot get much lower for him on the other side of the ball.

      Comment


      • Tim W. wrote: View Post
        Knowing what I know now, I'd draft Roy and then trade him after year 3.
        Let's say Roy had the same career path but was drafted by Toronto, his 3rd year was actually his career year, 22pts, 4rebs and 4asts, how would you be able to justify trading a potential elite player? And on that 3rd year, Bosh's contract was up, would he have signed the extension if Roy was playing alongside him?? So many ifs!!!!! hahaha.

        In hindsight, if its only between Bargnani and Roy, i still wouldve drafted Bargnani. I dont think having Roy and Bosh wouldve made the Raptors a contender, and with Roy's knees and Bosh's departure, the Raps would have been left with nothing (considering they made the playoffs for those three years they had Bosh and Roy).

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        • No disrespect but as a 4-time NBA champion, All-Star, 4-time NBA ALL DEFENSIVE Second Team and ACC Player of the Year, i think he knows pretty much what he's talking about. He may have gone crazy at the tailend of his career, but that doesnt overshadow his achievements.

          Does it apply to Bargnani? Yes and No. Yes, coz ive always stood by the idea that he can be trained to become a good defender, coupled with extreme effort from him. may or may not become a good defender but there is a possibility. No, because he doesnt need to be a defensive stopper. I would like either JJ or Ed to be the defensive stoppers but all im wishing for with Bargnani is to be at least a good defender.

          Comment


          • tbihis wrote: View Post
            Let's say Roy had the same career path but was drafted by Toronto, his 3rd year was actually his career year, 22pts, 4rebs and 4asts, how would you be able to justify trading a potential elite player? And on that 3rd year, Bosh's contract was up, would he have signed the extension if Roy was playing alongside him?? So many ifs!!!!! hahaha.

            In hindsight, if its only between Bargnani and Roy, i still wouldve drafted Bargnani. I dont think having Roy and Bosh wouldve made the Raptors a contender, and with Roy's knees and Bosh's departure, the Raps would have been left with nothing (considering they made the playoffs for those three years they had Bosh and Roy).
            Obviously with hindsight, you know Roy's career is just about to come off the rails. When it does, then you look like a genius!

            I think with a healthy Roy, the Raptors might have been a contender. Maybe. Obviously with Roy on board, some of the moves Colangelo would have made would have been different. It's a massive `what if'.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            • tbihis wrote: View Post
              No disrespect but as a 4-time NBA champion, All-Star, 4-time NBA ALL DEFENSIVE Second Team and ACC Player of the Year, i think he knows pretty much what he's talking about. He may have gone crazy at the tailend of his career, but that doesnt overshadow his achievements.

              Does it apply to Bargnani? Yes and No. Yes, coz ive always stood by the idea that he can be trained to become a good defender, coupled with extreme effort from him. may or may not become a good defender but there is a possibility. No, because he doesnt need to be a defensive stopper. I would like either JJ or Ed to be the defensive stoppers but all im wishing for with Bargnani is to be at least a good defender.
              Unfortunately the guys with all the talent sometimes are not the best judge. Grant probably thinks that anyone can be taught to play good defense, but this is coming from a player who always had good defensive instincts and a good work ethic. Those are two things that can't be taught.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
              Follow me on Twitter.

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              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                Unfortunately the guys with all the talent sometimes are not the best judge. Grant probably thinks that anyone can be taught to play good defense, but this is coming from a player who always had good defensive instincts and a good work ethic. Those are two things that can't be taught.
                I dont fully disagree. Michael Jordan is arguably the best player who ever played basketball yet he doesnt hold the same regard when it comes to judging talent, otherwise, the Bobcats would be contenders now, but thats a different topic altogether.

                But i think credit needs to be given where credit is due. Grant knows what he's talking about. A good baker knows the right ingredients to make a good cake. A good chemist knows the right chemical combinations to make blue meth (sorry just finished an episode of breaking bad) So Grant being a winner and a bonafide defender, knows what it takes to make a good defensive stopper.

                Comment


                • tbihis wrote: View Post
                  I dont fully disagree. Michael Jordan is arguably the best player who ever played basketball yet he doesnt hold the same regard when it comes to judging talent, otherwise, the Bobcats would be contenders now, but thats a different topic altogether.

                  But i think credit needs to be given where credit is due. Grant knows what he's talking about. A good baker knows the right ingredients to make a good cake. A good chemist knows the right chemical combinations to make blue meth (sorry just finished an episode of breaking bad) So Grant being a winner and a bonafide defender, knows what it takes to make a good defensive stopper.
                  Grant was a excellent player. It doesn't mean he knows how to make one. As far as I know, he's not a coach. How many players has he worked with? More importantly, how many poor defenders has he made into good ones? The issue, though, is not simply teaching a player skills. It's changing the core of a person. Defending is not simply a skill, but a mindset.

                  I'll give myself as an example. For as long as I remember, when I've played I've always felt it almost a personal affront when I get scored on. I've killed myself running the floor trying to get back on defense when there's probably no chance I'll catch up to the person. Then there are the people who will get stripped of the ball and watch the player run in for a layup. I couldn't do that. And it has nothing to do with coaching or training. It's my personality. I never give up and would rather keep my opponent from scoring and only score 5 than score 30 and watch him score 25. Lots of guys I have played with are simply not like that.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                  Follow me on Twitter.

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                  • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    Grant was a excellent player. It doesn't mean he knows how to make one. As far as I know, he's not a coach. How many players has he worked with? More importantly, how many poor defenders has he made into good ones? The issue, though, is not simply teaching a player skills. It's changing the core of a person. Defending is not simply a skill, but a mindset.

                    I'll give myself as an example. For as long as I remember, when I've played I've always felt it almost a personal affront when I get scored on. I've killed myself running the floor trying to get back on defense when there's probably no chance I'll catch up to the person. Then there are the people who will get stripped of the ball and watch the player run in for a layup. I couldn't do that. And it has nothing to do with coaching or training. It's my personality. I never give up and would rather keep my opponent from scoring and only score 5 than score 30 and watch him score 25. Lots of guys I have played with are simply not like that.
                    I dont agree. He followed a certain routine and training pattern in his career as a basketball player that made him a good defender. Im pretty sure he remembers how the whole history of how he started playing basketball, how he turned out to be a solid defender and how he managed to play throughout his career and become a winner. I think he's simply talking from experience. Given he did have good defensive instincts, he still worked on his game and trained hard. And thats what he's implying. One can be a solid defender given the right training.

                    I agree with this one. But look at it this way as well. If youre instinctively a good defender, like you guard somebody and youre always able to keep your man infront of you, but you hate defense and prefer to shoot the ball most of the time. does that make you a bad defender? just because you choose not to put effort on defense? just because you dont have the mindset and only skill, does that make you a bad defender? coz ive seen guys like this. ive played with guys like this. And in the same token, say a scrawny guy who is fast but really isnt too attentive on defense, but a coach pulls him aside and tells him, i want you to guard #3 (a guy who gets 30pts a night easy) stick to him like glue and do not make him shoot over you. every game they play this #3 he doesnt score more than 10. so are you going to label this guy a good defender because he's able to keep #3 to 10 points a game? when, prior to being given instructions, this guy couldnt guard squat?

                    since we're sharing experiences, i thought id add mine. i was never a good defender, at least thats what i thought of myself when i started playing basketball. i was the other guy you were referring to. i used to watch other guys blow by me. but i had a good shot and i can make plays. i played four years of junior varsity. and was never cut from the team. my coaches never told me i improved on defense, but i think the solid training and coaching for 4 years improved my defense, otherwise, i wouldve been cut by year 2.

                    the thing is, if defending in the NBA is more personality than skill, we'd all be making millions now. everyone has the drive, but only the ones who are physically able are recruited. Why? Coz training and coaching is available. I think we all know not all basketball players started out instinctively knowing basketball. A lot were "trained and coached" to be good if not the best ballplayers in the world, defense included.
                    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Oct 4, 2011, 04:29 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Well since we're talkin bout basketball in our own lives... I used to suck last year at basketball, I could never hit a contested shot I'd always get stuffed. After an entire summer of jump shots and layups I finally became the lights out shooter I wanted to be. And my quick release if virtually unblockable. Just goes to show that a little practice can go a long way.

                      Comment


                      • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        Well since we're talkin bout basketball in our own lives... I used to suck last year at basketball, I could never hit a contested shot I'd always get stuffed. After an entire summer of jump shots and layups I finally became the lights out shooter I wanted to be. And my quick release if virtually unblockable. Just goes to show that a little practice can go a long way.
                        Nice work.

                        Don't forget that lesson applies to everything in life.

                        Comment


                        • tbihis wrote: View Post
                          I dont agree. He followed a certain routine and training pattern in his career as a basketball player that made him a good defender. Im pretty sure he remembers how the whole history of how he started playing basketball, how he turned out to be a solid defender and how he managed to play throughout his career and become a winner. I think he's simply talking from experience. Given he did have good defensive instincts, he still worked on his game and trained hard. And thats what he's implying. One can be a solid defender given the right training.

                          I agree with this one. But look at it this way as well. If youre instinctively a good defender, like you guard somebody and youre always able to keep your man infront of you, but you hate defense and prefer to shoot the ball most of the time. does that make you a bad defender? just because you choose not to put effort on defense? just because you dont have the mindset and only skill, does that make you a bad defender? coz ive seen guys like this. ive played with guys like this. And in the same token, say a scrawny guy who is fast but really isnt too attentive on defense, but a coach pulls him aside and tells him, i want you to guard #3 (a guy who gets 30pts a night easy) stick to him like glue and do not make him shoot over you. every game they play this #3 he doesnt score more than 10. so are you going to label this guy a good defender because he's able to keep #3 to 10 points a game? when, prior to being given instructions, this guy couldnt guard squat?

                          since we're sharing experiences, i thought id add mine. i was never a good defender, at least thats what i thought of myself when i started playing basketball. i was the other guy you were referring to. i used to watch other guys blow by me. but i had a good shot and i can make plays. i played four years of junior varsity. and was never cut from the team. my coaches never told me i improved on defense, but i think the solid training and coaching for 4 years improved my defense, otherwise, i wouldve been cut by year 2.

                          the thing is, if defending in the NBA is more personality than skill, we'd all be making millions now. everyone has the drive, but only the ones who are physically able are recruited. Why? Coz training and coaching is available. I think we all know not all basketball players started out instinctively knowing basketball. A lot were "trained and coached" to be good if not the best ballplayers in the world, defense included.
                          I'm not discounting skill or good coaching or practice, but those by themselves don't create a consistently good defender. And that's the big difference. Someone can defend for a game well, but can they defend well consistently? That's where the personality comes into it. Having the skill, background etc will give you the POTENTIAL to be a good defender, but your personality will allow you to become a consistently good defender. Bargnani has the physical skills to be a good defender, but even if he had the training, I don't believe he has the instincts or personality to consistently be a good defender.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

                          Comment


                          • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                            Well since we're talkin bout basketball in our own lives... I used to suck last year at basketball, I could never hit a contested shot I'd always get stuffed. After an entire summer of jump shots and layups I finally became the lights out shooter I wanted to be. And my quick release if virtually unblockable. Just goes to show that a little practice can go a long way.
                            I've always said that a jumpshot is the easiest skill to learn in basketball. And this coming from a guy whose game revolves around the jumper.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

                            Comment


                            • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              I never bought the argument that Aldridge would have been redundant. I thought Aldridge, while a little undersized, would have been fine at center playing beside Bosh in today's league. I also believed Aldridge was the best player available, so screw it whether or not he had too many similar skills as Bosh.
                              Exactly. You can never have enough top quality bigs. It would be like San Antonio passing on Duncan because they already had Robinson. It's pretty much common knowledge that Bosh wanted Aldridge too, and was not happy with the Bargs pick.

                              Whether CB and LA could be successful together ....... hmmmm? That's an interesting 'what if' scenario.

                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              Knowing what I know now, I'd draft Roy and then trade him after year 3.
                              Brilliant, Timmy. LOL.
                              Last edited by golden; Wed Oct 5, 2011, 10:30 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                I'm not discounting skill or good coaching or practice, but those by themselves don't create a consistently good defender. And that's the big difference. Someone can defend for a game well, but can they defend well consistently? That's where the personality comes into it. Having the skill, background etc will give you the POTENTIAL to be a good defender, but your personality will allow you to become a consistently good defender. Bargnani has the physical skills to be a good defender, but even if he had the training, I don't believe he has the instincts or personality to consistently be a good defender.
                                Agreed. But, correct me if im wrong, youre implying that "personality" is innate. And i dont think it is. It can be instilled. With Bargnani, he can definitely, in my opinion, develop instincts to be a good defender. And not just Bargnani, every single player can develop instincts to become a good defender, given the right coaching and training. The question is, is he willing to put the effort. And that has been the question all along.

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