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Thread: Jarrett Jack Or Jose Calderon?

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    Default Jarrett Jack Or Jose Calderon?

    Really, I was just thinking. I know most would pick Jack to start at point, with Calderon off the bench. But honestly, I'm against that. Yes, Calderon has a huge crazy contract, yes he is not consistent, yes he is not THAT good. But, Jack? Really? At least Calderon can see the court, and he is a great passer. Jack isn't. Now that we have DeRozan, Weems, Bargnani all as offensive players, they need a guy to pass the ball, see the court. That is what Calderon is great at, giving the ball up. Giving it to the best guy, with the best shot. Jack is "better", but Jack is more of a shooting point, and we don't need that now. We need Bargnani to get the ball, we need DeRozan and Weems to be flying for Alley-Oops, or for free mid-range jumpers. I think, we should not judge the contract, but just put Jack next to Calderon, and see what the needs of this team is, and who would fit in with our new system the best.

    Just my opinion.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Calderon started the last 17 games of last season.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...iRaIDcKVdBPaB4
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    thanks Marz, you are right. About the contract, many want him out because of his huge contract, but I still think he can be useful to the team... And I really dislike Jack, watched him play... I don't know why, was trying to find reasons I guess. You are clearly better informed and probably more knowledgeable about basketball and the Raps. I'm new here Hi

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    What's Calderon's huge crazy contract have to do with it? And Calderon is one of the most consistent players on the Raptors atm.

    The reasoning used for Jack starting over Calderon is defense. But really, Jack didn't fair much better defensively last season either. Jack's Defensive Rating was 115 while Calderon's was 116. Over the course of their career? They both average a defensive rating of 112. Jack's best Defensive Rating was 110 in his last year in Portland, where he played 27 mpg and started 16. Jose's best Defensive Rating was 108 in his second year in Toronto where he averaged 21 mpg and started 11. Comparatively, Jameer Nelson and Russel Westbrook posted 106 Defensive Ratings, while Rondo had 102. In my opinion a 108 rating should suffice a PG.

    Some may attribute Jack's poor defensive ratings to him being played at the off-guard position. If that's the case, then you can't make the argument that Jack is a better fit than Calderon because he can play the 2-guard at times.

    My point is, the problem was team defense, not PG defense. If you're going to select a starting PG for next season, you do it based on offense because the defense of both players while playing on the same team was horrendous anyway. If we look at offense, last season was Jack's best offensive season in the NBA, and he still wasn't better than Jose Calderon. That's based on a number of stats and what several people saw on the court. Jack's season can also be attributed to the fact that the team as a whole was top 5 in the league on offense. Jose has consistently been a well above average offensive player (especially after his rookie season).

    That's why you start Jose Calderon instead of Jarret Jack. Not because of flash names like "shooting point" and assuming that Jack can't see the court (really, he can).

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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    What's Calderon's huge crazy contract have to do with it? And Calderon is one of the most consistent players on the Raptors atm.

    The reasoning used for Jack starting over Calderon is defense. But really, Jack didn't fair much better defensively last season either. Jack's Defensive Rating was 115 while Calderon's was 116. Over the course of their career? They both average a defensive rating of 112. Jack's best Defensive Rating was 110 in his last year in Portland, where he played 27 mpg and started 16. Jose's best Defensive Rating was 108 in his second year in Toronto where he averaged 21 mpg and started 11. Comparatively, Jameer Nelson and Russel Westbrook posted 106 Defensive Ratings, while Rondo had 102. In my opinion a 108 rating should suffice a PG.

    Some may attribute Jack's poor defensive ratings to him being played at the off-guard position. If that's the case, then you can't make the argument that Jack is a better fit than Calderon because he can play the 2-guard at times.

    My point is, the problem was team defense, not PG defense. If you're going to select a starting PG for next season, you do it based on offense because the defense of both players while playing on the same team was horrendous anyway. If we look at offense, last season was Jack's best offensive season in the NBA, and he still wasn't better than Jose Calderon. That's based on a number of stats and what several people saw on the court. Jack's season can also be attributed to the fact that the team as a whole was top 5 in the league on offense. Jose has consistently been a well above average offensive player (especially after his rookie season).

    That's why you start Jose Calderon instead of Jarret Jack. Not because of flash names like "shooting point" and assuming that Jack can't see the court (really, he can).
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
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    Calderon vs. Jack? On the offensive end they are quite different in their tendencies. Calderon is the better playmaker (runs the offense better) and supposedly better shooter (though that didn't show last season), But Jack is the more aggressive attacker to the hoop. Jack's size and strength allows him to bully through most PGs and take the contact from the help.

    On the defensive end...not so much difference. They both don't fight over screens and rely on help too much. Both aren't quick enough to stay in front of most PGs.

    Neither are very good passers. Meaning they both can't "thread the needle" with their passes. They can find open guys and get it to them no problem (Jose a tad better than Jack), but a pass through a defender or two, specially on pick and roll situations (a la Utah Jazz), they can't or don't do it with consistency. For example, during PnR situations, Jose usually passes over the defenders and not bounces the ball through them like Nash/Paul/Deron/etc. Jose and Jack are good, but not THAT good.

    Bottom line is Marz was right when he said choosing a starting PG should depend on what the offense asks for, since they are both just bad on D. If we need someone to run the offense and get other guys going then Jose is the guy. But if you need someone aggressive to take it to the hole on the PnR who can also pass and shoot, then Jack is a better choice.

    IMO Jack was a better fit starting last season with Hedo able to run the offense. But this time we need Jose. Of course we need someone better (esp. defensively) than both of those guys but that's another story.

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    Career Shooting Comparison - Calderon on left and Jack on right

    TS%----.584---.564
    eFG%---.543---.500


    Statistically Calderon's career numbers rank him 2nd in passing when compared to CP3, Nash, Rondo and Jack. Jacks ranks 5th or last among the group of five.


    For passing comparison among Calderon, Nash, CP3, Rondo and Jack see link below

    http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...ing-Pespective

    EFG%
    Effective Field Goal Percentage; the formula is (FG + 0.5 * 3P) / FGA. This statistic adjusts for the fact that a 3-point field goal is worth one more point than a 2-point field goal. For example, suppose Player A goes 4 for 10 with 2 threes, while Player B goes 5 for 10 with 0 threes. Each player would have 10 points from field goals, and thus would have the same effective field goal percentage (50%).

    TS%
    True Shooting Percentage; the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)). True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
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    He did have a few good games I guess... :S I still think we should give him a chance till Christmas, could maybe even inflate his numbers and help for a trade... :/

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    The problem isnt that he is bad, but he 1, dosnt work with this team, i could see him being amazing on a team that needs his type of play like a memphis. The reason people are upset is because of his contract, he is almost un moveable. I think that on this team right now, jarrett jack should be the starter, because he likes to push the offence, calderon dosnt. Calderon might be good this year with out bosh, and he will have more options coming down the floor, calderon is a great passer and i think that it could work on this team right now because when he comes down the floor, and looks left and right, he sees options, its not all pick and roll with bosh, or dump it in to bosh and wait for him to draw a double. I am excited to see how calderon can work with this offence because he may do well with it, we need to give him a bit of a chance, even though if we had moved him we could have gotten a chandler, hibbert, and even granger (haha).

    Interesting Post

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    Although I'm in favour of Jose starting too, I have to disagree with Jack not being able to see the floor.
    If you can't see the floor, you can't do this.
    There wasn't even an assist per game difference in Jose and Jack's numbers last season, so I don't know where people get the idea Jack can't pass.

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    I would choose Jack over Jose simply because he gives more grit to the starting lineup. Jack possesses a better defensive game. He's willing to take contact, look at how many charges he took last year. On offense, Jack fits in better too. I would rather have a starting pg who drives and creates for other guys, an aggressor, rather then a guy who is simply a passer/shooter. A starting lineup of: Jack-Weems-Deroz-Kleiza-Bargs is easliest the most underated starting lineup in the league because I think that D-Rex and Weems are going to be the biggest surprises of the offseason. I really like the combo of Kleiza/Bargs as well. When you look at the second string: Jose-Bosa-Belli-Amir-Anderson the Raps actually stand pretty solid as a whole, and are allot deeper then many teams. ESPN has us ranked as last in the East, so be it. It just gives these young guys who have valleys of motivation even more drive, awesome!

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    Quote Nick wrote: View Post
    I would choose Jack over Jose simply because he gives more grit to the starting lineup. Jack possesses a better defensive game. He's willing to take contact, look at how many charges he took last year. On offense, Jack fits in better too. I would rather have a starting pg who drives and creates for other guys, an aggressor, rather then a guy who is simply a passer/shooter. A starting lineup of: Jack-Weems-Deroz-Kleiza-Bargs is easliest the most underated starting lineup in the league because I think that D-Rex and Weems are going to be the biggest surprises of the offseason. I really like the combo of Kleiza/Bargs as well. When you look at the second string: Jose-Bosa-Belli-Amir-Anderson the Raps actually stand pretty solid as a whole, and are allot deeper then many teams. ESPN has us ranked as last in the East, so be it. It just gives these young guys who have valleys of motivation even more drive, awesome!

    In what world is Kleiza the starting PF, and Bellinelli the Backup SF? Where is Ed Davis?

    You're absolutely delusional.
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    Quote philwill wrote: View Post
    In what world is Kleiza the starting PF, and Bellinelli the Backup SF? Where is Ed Davis?

    You're absolutely delusional.
    Do you really think Ed Davis is a good enough pf that he is going to be backing up Amir right out of the gates? Don't get me wrong, I think Ed is the exact player we need, but he's not going to be ready to handle that big of a load once the season starts. I don't even think Amir is ready for that, hence why we would start a crafty vet in their place. If Amir is ready, awesome! That would allow Kleiza to move to the sf as a reserve, and allow Dorsey/Davis to backup the pf. Kleiza did an awesome job filling in for both sf/pf positions with Denver. He played with one of the best forward team's in the league which had Martin/Nene/Andersen, in which he learned allot! But ya your probably right, Kleiza would never start based on the fact that you said so and I'm delusional.

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    both terrific backups, neither great starters. sign me up for the calderon starts camp though.

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    Well for now, I'm just happy we don't have TJ Ford. At least we have decent point guards. Indiana have a big problem there HAHA. Let's see what surprises Colangelo decides to throw at us...

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    T-Mac to Detroit:
    http://www.nbadaily.net/wiretaps.cfm?id=688

    Maybe they'd take one of our PG's? I know Colangelo wants to unload Jose, but if a deal of Tayshaun Prince for Jarrett Jack and Reggie was offered ... looks pretty good for next season.
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    T-Mac to Detroit:
    http://www.nbadaily.net/wiretaps.cfm?id=688

    Maybe they'd take one of our PG's? I know Colangelo wants to unload Jose, but if a deal of Tayshaun Prince for Jarrett Jack and Reggie was offered ... looks pretty good for next season.
    T-Mac can't be traded until Dec 15th. That is a long way off and a lot can happen on the court between Opening night and Dec 15th.
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    T-Mac can't be traded until Dec 15th. That is a long way off and a lot can happen on the court between Opening night and Dec 15th.
    duide he wasn't talking about t-mac being traded. he was talking about tayshaun prince being traded, I don't know how you could misinterpret that but, w/e.


    and jack has been here less than calderon and has already been better, people want jack because we won games when jack was starting, then caldeorn came in and we stunk.

    jack fits better with the rout were going, if we are going run n' gun you can't do that because jose isn't agressive with the ball and he holds onto it too long to do that. jack is more agressive and gets the ball out of his hands quicker.

    plus, people are also saying it's time to turn over a new leaf, everyone from the 2006 division winning team is gone except jose, so jose needs to go to complete that circle.

    jose is not a good fit in the starting lineup, he fairs better off the bench, but he's a starting caliber point guard and can fair better in another system. so, you trade him for many more reasons than i just posted.
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    and jack has been here less than calderon and has already been better, people want jack because we won games when jack was starting, then caldeorn came in and we stunk.

    jack fits better with the rout were going, if we are going run n' gun you can't do that because jose isn't agressive with the ball and he holds onto it too long to do that. jack is more agressive and gets the ball out of his hands quicker.
    Actually when Calderon came in after jack started the offense picked up and there were numerous times we went on runs after the starting unit left us with a deficit.

    I'm also not sure why people still believe Jose is this passive passer. The only time this happened was under Sam Mitchell when he would bark out plays and Jose would have to execute. Last season under Triano and that "100 shats!" season, Jose was a much more push-the-offense kind of guy.

    What I'm having trouble understanding is why Jose is a "bad fit" in the starting lineup. People keep throwing that phrase around hoping it will stick, but provide no reason as to why. If Jose isn't a starting caliber PG, then neither is Jack. So how does Jack better fit the starters? Please explain. And please don't point to off-court chemistry. I could care less that Jack plays X-box with DeRozan on the weekends. I care about what they do on the court.

    From what I can see, a PG that gets you the ball at the right spot/time is great for developing the young gunz, and I think we're all in agreement that that is exactly what Jose does.
    Last edited by Marz; Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 01:12 PM.

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    Speaking only offensively, I'd prefer Jose for set play and Jack for more energetic, fast break style of game. With the current roster in mind I'd probably pick Jack.

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