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Thread: Calderon vs Nash, CP3, Rondo, Jack: From A Passing Pespective

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    Default Calderon vs Nash, CP3, Rondo, Jack: From A Passing Pespective

    Just because a player can't throw behind he back passes or thread the needle with the best of them does not mean in my opinion that they are not a good passer.

    Career Numbers Comparison Calderon Nash, CP3, Rondo, Jack

    Assists per 36 minutes-- -8.7-------9.5----------9.6------7.9---5.4 Calderon ranks #3
    Assists to Turnovers------4.1-------3.0---------3.9-------2.9----2.1 Calderon ranks #1
    TOV%---------------------16.2------18.8-------13.2-----18.6----17.6 Calderon ranks #2 The lower the better

    Point Totals
    ===========
    CP3-------1+2+1 = 4
    Calderon--3+1+2 = 6
    Nash------2+3+5 = 10
    Rondo-----4+4+4 = 12
    Jack-------5+5+3 = 13

    So statistically Calderon's career numbers rank him 2nd in passing when compared to CP3, Nash, Rondo and Jack


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    If you choose these statistics specifically then yes, however the intangible of actually running an offense, Nash is the strongest, then Chris Paul. The other 3 in this comparison are not even in the same league. There is a big difference.

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    Does this mean you think Calderon is a better passer than Nash is? Because that's what the stats support, doesn't it?

    IMO what separates a good passer from a great passer is the ability to get the ball to your man IN SPITE of the defense. Meaning just when you think there's no way you could get the ball to the open man in the corner because there are two defenders blocking the lane, you are somehow able to do it anyway.

    Calderon is great at running an offense. He's great at getting the ball to the open man. But that would mean his man has to get open first. notice when the defense is tight Jose tends to shy away from that pass. He plays it safe (most of the time). And that's what makes him so effective and efficient as a PG (high assist, low turnover). But does that mean he's a great passer? No.

    This also does quantify court vision, meaning the ability to actually see your man to be able to get him the ball. I actually think there are a lot of really good passers in the NBA, but very few guys with great court vision, that's why guys like Nash stand out. That's why while some players would be considered good passers, they don't really have the stats to support it.

    edit: After thinking about it a little bit more, I have to add that great passing also means being able to get the pass to your man at the perfect time, giving him the optimum opportunity to do something useful with the ball, be it score or whatever. In this area I believe Calderon is right up there with the best.
    Last edited by jlongs; Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote jlongs wrote: View Post
    Does this mean you think Calderon is a better passer than Nash is? Because that's what the stats support, doesn't it?

    IMO what separates a good passer from a great passer is the ability to get the ball to your man IN SPITE of the defense. Meaning just when you think there's no way you could get the ball to the open man in the corner because there are two defenders blocking the lane, you are somehow able to do it anyway.

    Calderon is great at running an offense. He's great at getting the ball to the open man. But that would mean his man has to get open first. notice when the defense is tight Jose tends to shy away from that pass. He plays it safe (most of the time). And that's what makes him so effective and efficient as a PG (high assist, low turnover). But does that mean he's a great passer? No.

    This also does quantify court vision, meaning the ability to actually see your man to be able to get him the ball. I actually think there are a lot of really good passers in the NBA, but very few guys with great court vision, that's why guys like Nash stand out. That's why while some players would be considered good passers, they don't really have the stats to support it.
    Of course getting the ball to your man is important. No one will argue that.

    However, I think you need to look at not only the total assists, which really should be adjusted for rate of play but also turnovers.

    If one player racks up three more assists per game but also two more turnovers per game than the net difference between the two passers is negligible.

    I am not saying that Calderon is a better passer than Nash or CP3 or maybe even Rondo all things considered. But he certainly is a better passer than Jack 4sure despite some of Jack's fancy passes.
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    Reason # 4829 why you can always manipulate stats and can't trust them:

    Player 1 Career Stats - 16.1 Pts, 5.6 Reb, 2.4 Ast
    Player 2 Career Stats - 14.6 Pts, 6.7 Reb, 1.8 Ast
    Player 3 Career Stats - 17.3 Pts, 8.8 Reb, 1.7 Ast
    Player 4 Career Stats - 17.6 Pts, 4.2 Reb, 4.5 Ast

    All pretty similair, correct? Not much to choose from? Player 1 is Scottie Pippen. Player 2 is Rasheed Wallace. Player 3 is Zach Randolph. Player 4 is Joe Johnson. Who would you rather have? I'm taking the guy with the 6 rings and the 8 All Defensive First Teams.

    Oh and BTW, Jose's best PER was in 2006-2007 season, where he finished 4th (behind Nash and Paul). Fifth? TJ Ford..... Just saying.

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    Jose is definitely a better passer than Jack. No question about it. At the top of his game he is one of the most efficient PGs in the league on the offensive end of the floor. He's top 3 in the league in AST/TO despite his struggles this season, and led the NBA for 2 season prior to that.

    I don't really know what happened last year but suddenly his shots weren't falling and he wasn't as effective a scorer. But his passing was just as good as it always has been. He even proved his critics wrong with all the oops he threw that they said he couldn't or wouldn't. He played a little bit "less safe" than he used to, with riskier passes than what he used to do. And that resulted in a tad more turnovers on his part. But that isn't to take away from his ability. Rather, I think it's because his teammates changed. He no longer just had to dump the ball down to Bosh, or swing it to Bargs/AP. He had Amir rolling hard to the basket, Sonny and DeMar cutting backdoor, all of whom he could throw the oop to.

    On the other hand, I cant find any reason or anything that Jack has done to be mentioned in the same breath as CP3/Nash/Rondo in terms of passing ability, other than perhaps to show that Jose can at least compare to those 3, but Jack cannot. I've only seen Jack make 2 or 3 fancy passes last season, and I hardly think that this makes him arguably a better passer than Jose.

    I do believe though, that neither Jose, nor Jack, has very good ability to thread the needle with their passing. And apart from defense, I think this is what separates Jose Calderon from being a very good passing PG, to a great passing PG.

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    No one is questioning his offense. They are questioning his D.

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    Quote DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
    Reason # 4829 why you can always manipulate stats and can't trust them:

    Player 1 Career Stats - 16.1 Pts, 5.6 Reb, 2.4 Ast
    Player 2 Career Stats - 14.6 Pts, 6.7 Reb, 1.8 Ast
    Player 3 Career Stats - 17.3 Pts, 8.8 Reb, 1.7 Ast
    Player 4 Career Stats - 17.6 Pts, 4.2 Reb, 4.5 Ast

    All pretty similair, correct? Not much to choose from? Player 1 is Scottie Pippen. Player 2 is Rasheed Wallace. Player 3 is Zach Randolph. Player 4 is Joe Johnson. Who would you rather have? I'm taking the guy with the 6 rings and the 8 All Defensive First Teams.

    Oh and BTW, Jose's best PER was in 2006-2007 season, where he finished 4th (behind Nash and Paul). Fifth? TJ Ford..... Just saying.
    You are looking at the simple stats or what I refer to as "box score stats". The use of box score stats do not show a player's contribution to winning, straight up. Baseball which is years ahead of the NBA in the use of advanced stats has proven that. Even +/- which is now among the regular box score stats do not prove anything about a player's contribution to winning except on a long term basis. They only have meaning when looked at on a relative basis over a number of seasons. The more the better, nuff said. #pause
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 03:24 PM.
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    The number of assists a player has absolutely nothing to do with his passing ability IMO. Honestly, I don't think Jose Calderon is any better of a passer than say Chauncey Billups or Tony Parker, who historically only average around 5-6 assists per game.

    It's all about how often the ball is in the player's hand and the style with which he plays. If Steve Nash or Chris Paul played the Lakers, would they even get 8-9 APG? I doubt it...

    The exact same reasoning applies for turnovers, as well.
    Last edited by jrdyck; Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 04:20 PM.

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    I admit, I'm not too much of a stat head, as I'm more of a "I like to watch and to get a feel on how they play and kind of go by that" kind of fan (I know, I'm weird that way). But I guess I can try and make an arguement with more 'advanced stats'. A couple of things:

    1. I'm going to use Hollinger's stats, which aren't perfect (they value rebounding and turnover ratio way too much), but seem to be a 'standard' that people seem to respect in the New Stat community.

    2. The problem with most of these stats is they can't really value intangibles. How do you measure how Jarrett Jack went out to Vegas, hung out with Weems, Derozan and Davis and seems to want to be a leader, which was acknowledged by both the GM and one of the assistant coaches? How can you measure how fast Chris Paul is or how much people respect and kill themselves for Steve Nash? How can you measure the fearlessness and the tenacity of Rondo on defense? Baseball isn't basketball, where it's a more individual sport. Houston is probably the biggest "Moneyball" team in the NBA and while they do very well, at the end of the day, it's still the team with the most talent, something you can't find necessarily in advanced stats.

    3. Finally, I don't want to put this as a piling on for Calderon, but if your point is to prove that he's better than Jarrett Jack, a guy who's played on 3 teams already and is (at best) a very good backup point guard... then I don't know what to tell you.

    Basing off last year:

    True Shooting Percentage -

    Steve Nash .615
    Jarrett Jack .599
    Chris Paul .584
    Jose Calderon . 569
    Rajon Rondo .540

    (This caught me by suprise, as I figured that Calderon would shoot better than Jack)

    Assist Ratio -

    Steve Nash 39.3
    Rajon Rondo 38.4
    Chris Paul 36.6
    Jose Calderon 36.2
    Jarrett Jack 30.5

    (Keep in mind, Chris Duhon was 4th. This is a lot due to the system)

    Turnover Ratio -

    Paul 8.5
    Calderon 8.9
    Rondo 11.9
    Jack 12
    Nash 13

    (Not suprising, Calderon takes care of the ball and Nash and Rondo tend to be riverboat gamblers)

    Value added

    Nash 423.5
    Rondo 361.9
    Paul 325.6
    Jack 178.8
    Calderon 151.2

    Estimated Wins Added

    Nash 14.1
    Rondo 12.1
    Paul 10.9
    Jack 6.0
    Calderon 5.0

    (Calderon places last on both categories. Although he adds more Estimated Wins and Value Added than Brandon Jennings and Tony Parker).

    What does all this mean? I have zero idea, to be honest. We all saw that Calderon had a bad season and might be able to bounce back, but in the comparsion with these other 4 guys, he's the 2nd oldest and (depending on Nash's back and Paul's knee) might be the most injury prone. No matter what stats you might throw at me, I'm never going to buy that he can be at those 3 guys' level or even that he should play over Jack.

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    I like the way calderon runs the offense he gets players more involved then what jack does.. but at the same time i like the little toughness jack brings to the point for the raptors.. i would like to see the same role with jack and calderon running point for us. Thats most likely going to be the case anyways because calderon contract is hard to dump.

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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    If you choose these statistics specifically then yes, however the intangible of actually running an offense, Nash is the strongest, then Chris Paul. The other 3 in this comparison are not even in the same league. There is a big difference.
    There are lies, big lies and than statistics

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    Looking at Minutes Played, FGA Attempts and Assists the numbers show what we already know and that Jack is really more of a combo guard and not really a very good assist man.

    Players left to right--Jack, Calderon, Nash, CP3, Rondo

    Career
    ----------------
    Stat---------------------------Jack-Cald--Nash-CP3-Rondo
    ==============================================
    FGA per Minute Played---------.29---.28---.35---.39---.29
    Assists per Minute Played------.15---.24---.27---.27---.22
    Assists per FGA----------------.52---.86---.77---.69---.76 A player's assists vs their FGA.

    1. CP3 and Nash are the top two shots per minute played and Jack, Calderon and Rondo are all bunch together below CP3 and Nash in shots taken per minute played

    2 CP3 and Nash are the top two in assists per minute played. Calderon is third Rondo fourth and Jack is way behind in last in assists per minute played. His rate is only a little over 60% of Calderon's. Keep in mind that Bosh had only 48% of his field goals assisted in 09-10. The year before Bosh had 51% of his field goals assisted. In Calderon's last full healthy season Bosh had 63% of field goals assisted. So it seems that when you Calderon was not healthy or not playing on the court with Bosh that Bosh had a lot fewer assisted field goals. This is not good. You want your scorers to get easy assisted baskets and not have to create them.

    This is as I see it the biggest weakness to Jack's game. His passing does not make the other four guys on the court as good as they would be playing with a guy who frankly is capable of generating more assists per minute played.

    3. In Assists per FGA Calderon was #1 in this by quite a bit followed by Nash and Rondo. CP3 was fourth due to the fact that he controls the ball so much when he is on the court and besides getting a lot of assists takes a lot of shots. Again Jack was last in this category by quite a bit showing that Jack is really a combo guard and not a point guard.
    ================================================== =

    Bottom line is that throughout his career Jack has not shown the ability to generate assists at a comparable level with NBA points guards because he is not a PG but a combo guard who can also play the point.

    Calderon on the other hand is a true PG who generates assists per minute played at a satisfactory if not spectacular level and also does one of the better jobs in the NBA of not turning the ball over.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../jackja01.html

    http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR15D.HTM

    Of course we all knew this before the post.

    So the question is should the Raptors be starting a combo guard as their point guard or a point guard as their point guard? I just wish Calderon could play at least average NBA defense then it would all be moot. Calderon would be starting and Jack would be coming off the bench 4sure.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Aug 10th, 2010 at 11:42 PM.
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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