New Name For The Young Gunz? You Decide

[SirChillyMost]

I'm not trying to dictate anything to anyone. What I'm saying is that I think it's silly that we feel compelled to place nicknames on everything. I think the "Young Gunz" nickname at this point in the game is on par with the silliness of the "banger bros". Those kids haven't proved a thing yet and here we are giving them nicknames, which in my opinion typically goes to guys who have done something and serves as a badge of honor.

They made it to the NBA - isn't that something? I played D1 basketball and had hoopdreams so I know those who make it to the NBA have accomplished something very few ever will.....in my mind.

Isn't the NBA entertainment? Well let's be entertained then by the YG'z!!

[Apollo]

They made it to the NBA - isn't that something? I played D1 basketball and had hoopdreams so I know those who make it to the NBA have accomplished something very few ever will.....in my mind.

It is something to make it to the NBA and I commend them on it, it's a great accomplishment but on they NBA level have accomplished nothing. On the totem pole of life, they're high now, living the good life but on the NBA totem pole they've done nothing, proven nothing. What I keep getting back to is what have they done? Bah, ha, ha for one the nickname is flawed because from mid range out Amir couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat.

Isn't the NBA entertainment? Well let's be entertained then by the YG'z!!

I can be entertained without having to divide the team into sub groups and give them nicknames.

[Buddahfan]

I'm not trying to dictate anything to anyone. What I'm saying is that I think it's silly that we feel compelled to place nicknames on everything. I think the "Young Gunz" nickname at this point in the game is on par with the silliness of the "banger bros". Those kids haven't proved a thing yet and here we are giving them nicknames, which in my opinion typically goes to guys who have done something and serves as a badge of honor.

If you count only getting the Raptors to the playoffs then you are correct but otherwise I totally beg to differ.

The Raptors improved their win total by seven in 09-10 vs 08-09 and missed the playoffs by one game.

So what can we attribute that seven game improvement to?

1. Triano's coaching - I don't think that we will get many votes for that
2. Turk being on the team - If he was responsible for anything it was in a negative way and not in a positive when you add in his off the court sheet and their negative affect on the team.
3. Improvement by Bargnani - Other than maybe improving a bit in his man to man defense there was no improvement of significance by him in 09-10 vs 08-09
4. The addition of Antoine Wright and Marco both of whom are out of here for good reason.
5. Reggie Evan's 200 or so minutes that he played in 09-10. I think not
6. Calderon's game - Certainly not it regressed last season
7. Jack - Maybe a game or two but that only gets the Raptor back to even when counting Turk's negative impact.
8. Improvement by Bosh? - His Wins Shares actually dropped last season from 08-09 going from 9.7 to 9.6.

So who are we left with? Weems, DeRozan and Johnson. Mostly Johnson who had the third highest total Win Shares on the team in 09-10 behind Bosh and Jack 4.8 vs Johnson 4.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../jackja01.html

So it seems to me that the "Young Gunz" were mainly responsible for the improvement in the Raptors in 09-10 vs 08-09. Is this enough to say that they "accomplished something"? I think that is up to each person to decide just like it is my humble opinion up to each person to decide if they deserve a nickname. After all it is "The Fans Team"

Sincerely a Fan

[SirChillyMost]

It is something to make it to the NBA and I commend them on it, it's a great accomplishment but on they NBA level have accomplished nothing. On the totem pole of life, they're high now, living the good life but on the NBA totem pole they've done nothing, proven nothing. What I keep getting back to is what have they done? Bah, ha, ha for one the nickname is flawed because from mid range out Amir couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat.



I can be entertained without having to divide the team into sub groups and give them nicknames.

Like I said b4 they made it to the NBA plus it's all entertainment- recognize game, or not- free will.

[Buddahfan]

Yeah and on a good team Amir and Sonny would be at the end of the rotation... No wait, on a good team Sonny may not even be playing because he probably wouldn't have even gotten a chance last year. DeMar, who I am very high on, doesn't even deserve a nickname yet (in my honest opinion which I am not forcing on anyone) and he is hands down more athletically gifted and talented than the other two.

You are making a strong case against Amir based upon his propensity to commit fouls because that is all you have to go on. If he can somehow significantly mitigate that problem in 09-10 you will have no argument though I don't think with all due respect that you have much of one right now.

Of all the players in the NBA last season who played 18 mpg or less Amir had the most Win Shares and he was on a mediocre team. Win Shares for each player are affected by the team's overall win loss record. So players that are on good teams have their Win Shares inflated somewhat by their teammates performance if they are on a good team.

So it seems to me that any team in the league with any sense could find 18 mpg for him just like the Raptors did last season. At least if they were smart. Some other regular rotation guys on that list who played with pretty good teams and had fewer Win Shares than Amir include

1. M. Bonner
2. M. Gortat
3. J. Anthony
4. R. Anderson
5. N. Mohammad
6. J. Moon
7. M. Evans
8. Z. Pachulia
9. L. Amundsen
10. J. Bayless
11. K. Thomas

Johnson had more Win Shares then all of those regular rotation guys. I believe that they all played for a playoff team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l=&order_by=ws

[Apollo]

If you count only getting the Raptors to the playoffs then you are correct but otherwise I totally beg to differ.

The Raptors improved their win total by seven in 09-10 vs 08-09 and missed the playoffs by one game.

So what can we attribute that seven game improvement to?

1. Triano's coaching - I don't think that we will get many votes for that
2. Turk being on the team - If he was responsible for anything it was in a negative way and not in a positive when you add in his off the court sheet and their negative affect on the team.
3. Improvement by Bargnani - Other than maybe improving a bit in his man to man defense there was no improvement of significance by him in 09-10 vs 08-09
4. The addition of Antoine Wright and Marco both of whom are out of here for good reason.
5. Reggie Evan's 200 or so minutes that he played in 09-10. I think not
6. Calderon's game - Certainly not it regressed last season
7. Jack - Maybe a game or two but that only gets the Raptor back to even when counting Turk's negative impact.
8. Improvement by Bosh? - His Wins Shares actually dropped last season from 08-09 going from 9.7 to 9.6.

So who are we left with? Weems, DeRozan and Johnson. Mostly Johnson who had the third highest total Win Shares on the team in 09-10 behind Bosh and Jack 4.8 vs Johnson 4.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../jackja01.html

So it seems to me that the "Young Gunz" were mainly responsible for the improvement in the Raptors in 09-10 vs 08-09. Is this enough to say that they "accomplished something"? I think that is up to each person to decide just like it is my humble opinion up to each person to decide if they deserve a nickname. After all it is "The Fans Team"

Sincerely a Fan

While I appreciate your analysis I feel you missed the boat. I think the team this season underachieved but looks a lot better than the season before because the season before was a train wreck. Colangelo fired Sam Mitchell after around 20 games when he had them playing around .500 ball. As soon as Jay took over they they train wrecked, never to recover again. I think they "improved" this season because Jay had a whole season prior working out the kinks and then the off-season to figure how he was going to establish his vision. Colangelo fired a guy who was doing alright and replaced him with a rookie who didn't look ready. They failed because if it. Jay had a fair opportunity last season and improved because of it.

[Buddahfan]

While I appreciate your analysis I feel you missed the boat. I think the team this season underachieved but looks a lot better than the season before because the season before was a train wreck. Colangelo fired Sam Mitchell after around 20 games when he had them playing around .500 ball. As soon as Jay took over they they train wrecked, never to recover again. I think they "improved" this season because Jay had a whole season prior working out the kinks and then the off-season to figure how he was going to establish his vision. Colangelo fired a guy who was doing alright and replaced him with a rookie who didn't look ready. They failed because if it. Jay had a fair opportunity last season and improved because of it.

Good points

But as I posted above Amir had a lot to do with it at least 4.5 Wins Shares worth. I don't think that you can really objectively say that his play did not contribute to the Raptors improvement. As I showed above he had more Win Shares than at least 10 regular rotation players on NBA playoff teams. You can always tend to disregard the numbers but I don;t think that BC and Triano do otherwise they wouldn't have give him $30 plus million

[Nick]

If you count only getting the Raptors to the playoffs then you are correct but otherwise I totally beg to differ.

The Raptors improved their win total by seven in 09-10 vs 08-09 and missed the playoffs by one game.

So what can we attribute that seven game improvement to?

1. Triano's coaching - I don't think that we will get many votes for that
2. Turk being on the team - If he was responsible for anything it was in a negative way and not in a positive when you add in his off the court sheet and their negative affect on the team.
3. Improvement by Bargnani - Other than maybe improving a bit in his man to man defense there was no improvement of significance by him in 09-10 vs 08-09
4. The addition of Antoine Wright and Marco both of whom are out of here for good reason.
5. Reggie Evan's 200 or so minutes that he played in 09-10. I think not
6. Calderon's game - Certainly not it regressed last season
7. Jack - Maybe a game or two but that only gets the Raptor back to even when counting Turk's negative impact.
8. Improvement by Bosh? - His Wins Shares actually dropped last season from 08-09 going from 9.7 to 9.6.

So who are we left with? Weems, DeRozan and Johnson. Mostly Johnson who had the third highest total Win Shares on the team in 09-10 behind Bosh and Jack 4.8 vs Johnson 4.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../jackja01.html

So it seems to me that the "Young Gunz" were mainly responsible for the improvement in the Raptors in 09-10 vs 08-09. Is this enough to say that they "accomplished something"? I think that is up to each person to decide just like it is my humble opinion up to each person to decide if they deserve a nickname. After all it is "The Fans Team"

Sincerely a Fan

Ok we get it... Your annoying

[Buddahfan]

Ok we get it... Your annoying

I was having a discussion with our leader Apollo.

Do you always so rudely butt into conversations that you are not part of?

Just asking

[Nick]

I was having a discussion with our leader Apollo.

Do you always so rudely butt into conversations that you are not part of?

Just asking

Sorry, I didn't even mean to reply to that convo, it was meant for SirChilly...

[Apollo]

Good points

But as I posted above Amir had a lot to do with it at least 4.5 Wins Shares worth. I don't think that you can really objectively say that his play did not contribute to the Raptors improvement. As I showed above he had more Win Shares than at least 10 regular rotation players on NBA playoff teams.

I have never said I didn't think Amir was a good player or couldn't help the Raptors. I just feel that you overrate him solely with stats as your backup. Stats don't take into consideration that most of the time he wasn't asked to match up against the other team's best big. The stats you provide don't show that when he was asked to start his game shrunk when facing a couple good opponents but he looked good against mediocre teams. Your stats don't take into consideration he was on a tight leash last season, not allowed to do much on offense and so that boosted his efficiency numbers. I am interested in seeing how he:

A.) Handles real opponents throughout the whole season.
B.) How his efficiency numbers look when asked to do more than make put backs and easy attempts close to the basket.
C.) How he manages to maintain his defensive and rebounding aggression while not fouling himself on to the bench or into the locker room.

Being a guy who has to look at a lot of numbers all the time I can appreciate how you can make stats serve whatever view you have. The key thing to remember is stats aren't judge, jury and verdict and while his stats look good under the limited conditions he's operated this year, all those safety nets start to disappear and Mr. Big Money needs to get it done.

Back on topic. Amir isn't a "gun", never was. If I would call him anything it would be a young bruiser.

One more thing. Last year was a contract year and anyone who watches sports can appreciate that sometimes the real player doesn't show up on a contract year but a super charge, one time only, player arrives and then vanishes like the wind.

I don;t think that BC and Triano do otherwise they wouldn't have give him $30 plus million

Yeah, because Colangelo has never grossly overplayed for a player in his management career. Never in Toronto and certainly never in Phoenix.

[Buddahfan]

Sorry, I didn't even mean to reply to that convo, it was meant for SirChilly...

Fair enough - No harm no foul

[Buddahfan]

I have never said I didn't think Amir was a good player or couldn't help the Raptors. I just feel that you overrate him solely with stats as your backup. Stats don't take into consideration that most of the time he wasn't asked to match up against the other team's best big. The stats you provide don't show that when he was asked to start his game shrunk when facing a couple good opponents but he looked good against mediocre teams. Your stats don't take into consideration he was on a tight leash last season, not allowed to do much on offense and so that boosted his efficiency numbers. I am interested in seeing how he:

A.) Handles real opponents throughout the whole season.
B.) How his efficiency numbers look when asked to do more than make put backs and easy attempts close to the basket.
C.) How he manages to maintain his defensive and rebounding aggression while not fouling himself on to the bench or into the locker room.

Being a guy who has to look at a lot of numbers all the time I can appreciate how you can make stats serve whatever view you have. The key thing to remember is stats aren't judge, jury and verdict and while his stats look good under the limited conditions he's operated this year all those safety nets start to disappear and Mr. Big Money needs to get it done.

Back on topic. Amir isn't a "gun", never was. If I would call him anything it would be a young bruiser.

I basically agree with the points that that you made in this post.

Where I don't agree is when you say something like he would be on the end of the bench on a good playoff team.

Yes at the beginning of last season, but no at the beginning of 10-11. Even with strong playoff contenders it is my opinion that he would get serious bench rotation minutes and not sit on the end of the bench.

In any case like I posted elsewhere he has a real opportunity in 10-11 to show if he can man up. We will certainly better be able to judge his abilities and potential for further growth by next spring.

I hope he can stay on the court because then people will see that he just has something that most other players don't have. Even a number of Pistons coaches have said that about him.

In fact one of Dave Cowens famous quotes about Amir was said during the pre-season of 08-09. Cowens said and I am paraphrasing. "Amir can do things that are not teachable and doesn't do things that are teachable"

Cowens isn't the only NBA coach who has said things like this about Amir. You may not see it for whatever reason, but a number of NBA personnel see it including Triano and BC.

Having said that I do expect him to go through a learning curve in 10-11 if he starts for most or all of the season. It would be dumb not think that. How steep that learning curve will be, we will find out.

P.S. I do though totally disagree with your comment regarding his efficiency numbers. Yes they will fall off as he takes more jump shots but I doubt that will be the staple of his game. He will continue to get better on the inside and a number of Raptors writers/coaches have commented that even last season Amir was the best Raptors at rolling to the basket and on the run outs. Those plays are not going to go away. Plays like that more than put backs will continue to be the staple of his offense along with hopefully an improved hook shot and a short range jumper.

He is not a chucker so he never will take a lot of low percentage shots no matter who he plays against. That is not his nature as a basketball player. His biggest fault on offense to my mind is that he is not aggressive enough in calling for and taking shots. So I doubt seriously that his efficiency numbers will fall off much as he steps up in class, once he gets experienced enough at playing against front line players on a regular basis. All this assumes he can greatly mitigate his foul problem. If not he will for the most part continue to put up minutes and numbers in the future like we saw last season.

[Apollo]

Where I don't agree is when you say something like he would be on the end of the bench on a good playoff team.

Yes at the beginning of last season, but no at the beginning of 10-11. Even with strong playoff contenders it is my opinion that he would get serious bench rotation minutes and not sit on the end of the bench.

I thought I clearly said "end of the rotation".

I hope he can stay on the court because then people will see that he just has something that most other players don't have. Even a number of Pistons coaches have said that about him.

In fact one of Dave Cowens famous quotes about Amir was said during the pre-season of 08-09. Cowens said and I am paraphrasing. "Amir can do things that are not teachable and doesn't do things that are teachable"

Cowens isn't the only NBA coach who has said things like this about Amir. You may not see it for whatever reason, but a number of NBA personnel see it including Triano and BC.

Meanwhile most of the media outside Toronto that I've been reading and some of it in Toronto has been something to the extent of "Colangelo grossly overpaid for Amir Johnson" or "Amir who?" or "you gotta be kidding me, that much money for Amir Johnson?"

[Nick]

Fair enough - No harm no foul

Haha right on