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Thread: Has Jose Been Left To Twist In The Wind?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Rookie StaytheCourse's Avatar
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    I saw your post about the Cleveland sign-and-trade and I stand corrected. I'm sure Riley made every effort to accomodate LeBron all the same.
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  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Rookie StaytheCourse's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Jack Armstrong was on the fan and even he basically said that Jose's going to get traded. We've already tried twice and failed, just based on how awkward it would be in training camp, I'm saying Jose's out.

    I do like Jose as a person, it's a shame we're dealing him out, but Jack is cheaper and I think fits better with what we're trying to do. Jose was good at running two-man games, taking care of the ball by basically dominating the handling, but we're not playing like that anymore, and I think his risk averse nature is also working against him in Toronto.
    I agree with what you say but its unfortunate the way this has played out!

    Can we all lay blame on MJ one more time? That deal would have been so sweet!
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    Quote BCsMaBoi wrote: View Post
    I saw your post about the Cleveland sign-and-trade and I stand corrected. I'm sure Riley made every effort to accomodate LeBron all the same.
    i agree with you that jose plays hard, sacrifices himself for the team, and NEVER complains... he is really good in that sense.

    i just question if he didnt get the $45 million, would he still be a raptor. but i agree with you on everything else.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Rookie StaytheCourse's Avatar
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    i agree with you that jose plays hard, sacrifices himself for the team, and NEVER complains... he is really good in that sense.

    i just question if he didnt get the $45 million, would he still be a raptor. but i agree with you on everything else.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    how loyal can you be when you ask BC to pay you $45 million over 5 years based on one good season ?
    I'm not sure I understand this question. Calderon's agent negotiated for the best possible deal for his client. It is Calderon's obligation to play to the best of his ability to honour the length and value of his contract. Loyalty has nothing to do with his contract. The lucrative offer of that magnitude can make any player stay. So in a sense, he wasn't loyal - perhaps he was overpaid to stay.

    I was hoping that there would be a renewed Calderon with the departure of Bosh. However, it is because of Bosh's departure that spells the end of JC. I can see Calderon thriving with the Knicks. I think him and Stoudemire could be a lethal 2-man combo. Personally, if Curry's coming here then we should have Wilson Chandler along with him as well (which New York was open to trading BTW).
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Sat Aug 14th, 2010 at 10:19 PM.
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  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    i agree with you that jose plays hard, sacrifices himself for the team, and NEVER complains... he is really good in that sense.

    i just question if he didnt get the $45 million, would he still be a raptor. but i agree with you on everything else.
    The problem i have with the logic of linking contract size to loyalty is that there are larger conventions and organizational culture at work. Are athlete's overpaid? who knows. BUT what we do know is that the NBA supports the player-agent-gm contract negotiations process, and agents have a very influential role. It is in the best interest of the agent to get the player the most money available perhaps even more so than to that player as an agents earnings are made on commission, the only determining factor in how much money the agent makes is to ensure that his player gets the largest contract. The agent has quite a lot of incentive to convince the player that they should take the most amount that they are offered and should even negotiate for a higher salary. Now don't get me wrong in each individual case of player-agent relationships the player does have the ultimate decision of where to sign and whether to take a pay cut or ask for more; however, when you repeat this process over every player in the league taking the most possible money becomes the standard. Even though an individual may have been willing to take less, or ultimately does, they are conditioned by their environment that "getting the best contract" is the norm, and negotiating for less is the anomaly. Now, unless we are willing to paint every player in the NBA who enters into contract negotiations with an agent disloyal, it is unjustified to point on one player.

    Furthermore, aren't you partly questioning his loyalty because he didn't meet expectations? If he had exceeded expectations, and his contract was viewed as a steal would he have been more loyal for 'settling' for a smaller contract? We cannot judge contracts and loyalty through hindsight.

    Lastly, even if you take the position that it was a bad contract at the time it seems that you are assuming that they initial offered Jose less and he fought for a better contract. We are not privy to those negotiations, for all we know Jose's agent wanted more for him but Jose opted not to ask for more because he liked Toronto, or he could have been offered more from another team and chose to sign with Toronto for non-economic reasons (aka loyalty) I don't have the answers, but unless i'm wrong neither do you.

    The whole point is that since we are not privy to the process of negotiation that takes place between the agent the management and the player it is difficult to determine how belligerent a player is being in contract negotiations; especially given that the greater culture is influenced by agents, whose motives impact both the player and the front office. Also whether or not a contract is good or bad is often determined by what happens after the contract is signed ie the player's success, if a player under performs versus their contract but has had a good attitude and hard work, do we blame the ownership or the player? Is it realistic for a player to be able to accurate gauge his(or her) monetary value over the length of the contract? If so perhaps we could expect players to correct the mistakes of manage and argue for a lower salary, personally, i don't think it realistic to expect players to be able to make those person evaluations accurately; sometimes because over analytical capabilities and perhaps more often because of personal perception filters. Perhaps if agents were paid a base salary as opposed to commission it would be easier to separate the intentions of the player from the intentions of the agent. Unfortunately we cannot. In light of these reasons I think that it is not a worthwhile exercise to question any player's loyalty because of their contract, unless their are other factors that would contribute to this line or reasoning. In the case of Jose, I haven't seen any other evidence. Feel free to rebut.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    My own personal opinion is that Jose has been left twisting in the wind; however, he is a class act and that if he is back next year he'll be embraced by the fan base and supported until he is dealt in december after his stock has risen. Since this thread is about loyalty, how about managerial loyalty? They gave him the contract and I think that they should ride him out and not necessarily trade him. Yes they are going in a different direction but that doesn't mean that Jose will not fit. Chemistry is more alchemy then science and I think there's a good chance we'll see a renewed Jose this season lobbing alley-opps like its his JAY OH BEE. Is his contract bad for what he has done, yes. However, it could be worse (aka TJ Ford and Indiana!). I think that Jose should be given the opportunity to play with these young guys until at least december. If you really don't see him as working in the long time plans then make a move, but if he could why not keep him? Sometimes the management should show a little loyalty too!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Rookie CB4's Avatar
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    If the team is indeed looking to up the tempo and put a new emphasis on defense, Calderon is the worst possible fit, since he does neither.
    When did we put a new emphasis on defense? We signed Kleiza, traded for Barbosa, have Bargnani as our interior presence, and Amir hasn't shown he can stay out of foul trouble.

    Anyways, I think José is a great teammate but I don't think we can afford to keep him due to all our liabilities on defense and the fact that the point guard position is so crucial. His contract is also tough to swallow.

  9. #29
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    It's pretty incredible how we can go from MVP chants to this, in the space of 20 months.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    I don't know how many of you saw Team USA play today.

    The ESPN announcers, I can't recall who they were, were talking about the Spanish National Team and they mentioned Calderon.

    Then one of them said and I ain't kidding

    "Calderon's defense is so bad he couldn't even guard either one of us"

    We all know that Calderon's defense is bad but that is really a low blow especially to say on National TV during a basketball game.

    That is another example of what ESPN thinks of the Raptors players and I am sure the Raptors team in general.

    As ESPN goes so goes all the others in the LSSM.

    I don't expect that the Raptors will receive much love from the LSSM in 10-11 unless they start winning

    They need to come out really aggressive in the pre-season on both sides of the ball to start getting the officials used to it. This will overcome some of officials unconscious ESPN related attitude. "If ESPN says they stink and are mocking them why should we give them any questionable calls?"
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  11. #31
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    Guys, when someone is giving you Boris Diaw and Tyson Chandler for Jose Calderon and Reggie Evans, you pull the trigger. I don't think there's anyone who would refute that. In my opinion, this had nothing to do with BC not liking what Jose brings to the table but rather BC seeing an extremely favourable trade and going for it. Jose should have no hard feelings.

  12. #32
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Guys, when someone is giving you Boris Diaw and Tyson Chandler for Jose Calderon and Reggie Evans, you pull the trigger. I don't think there's anyone who would refute that. In my opinion, this had nothing to do with BC not liking what Jose brings to the table but rather BC seeing an extremely favourable trade and going for it. Jose should have no hard feelings.
    +1
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  13. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    how loyal can you be when you ask BC to pay you $45 million over 5 years based on one good season ?
    You amaze me

    If calderon asked for that money...which he didnt because thats not how free agency works, bryan TOOK THE DEAL!

    Dammit man, its so simple

  14. #34
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    It's pretty incredible how we can go from MVP chants to this, in the space of 20 months.
    calderon got mvp chants? thats stupidity on the fans then...the incredible part is how he is in the nba with "the clapper"

    if he just didnt do that i would be fin with him but it gets on my nerves so badly lol...
    he is an excellent passer and he runs the show with set up offence...memphis he would rock with...not toronto...people saying we should keep him are being silly. It would be better for him and the organization to be traded to a team that a) would be more successful with him, and b) a team that could give him all the minutes he needs.

  15. #35
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    Quote CB4 wrote: View Post
    When did we put a new emphasis on defense? We signed Kleiza, traded for Barbosa, have Bargnani as our interior presence, and Amir hasn't shown he can stay out of foul trouble.

    Anyways, I think José is a great teammate but I don't think we can afford to keep him due to all our liabilities on defense and the fact that the point guard position is so crucial. His contract is also tough to swallow.
    Well I would hope that the team is putting a new emphasis on defense considering we had one of the worst defenses of all time last season. Resigning Amir along with drafting Ed Davis and Solomon Alibi reinforces this notion, and the fact that Calderon is even on the trading block is the biggest sign of all.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Rookie BomKeyzi's Avatar
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    Trade him

  17. #37
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    If the team is indeed looking to up the tempo and put a new emphasis on defense, Calderon is the worst possible fit, since he does neither.
    Calderon can most definitely play up tempo, as he proved last season. The team scored more when he was on the court. Calderon had great chemistry with Amir Johnson and Sonny Weems, both of whom seem to be important for the future of the team. Calderon is currently the only player on the roster that can run an offense effectively, whether in the half court or full court. Personally, with their upgrades defensively, they can afford to keep Calderon and will desperately need him to help them score.

    And if Colangelo really wanted to clear the team of defensive problems, Bargnani would be the next to go.

  18. #38
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Calderon can most definitely play up tempo, as he proved last season. The team scored more when he was on the court. Calderon had great chemistry with Amir Johnson and Sonny Weems, both of whom seem to be important for the future of the team. Calderon is currently the only player on the roster that can run an offense effectively, whether in the half court or full court. Personally, with their upgrades defensively, they can afford to keep Calderon and will desperately need him to help them score.

    This is flat out wrong. Calderon has shown to be one of the slowest paced starting point guards in the league. Every Calderon run team has been below average in terms of pace (total possessions) relative to the rest of the league. It's easy to see this considering how many late in the shot clock long two point jump shots Calderon tends to generate.

  19. #39
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    Calderon is not only slow for a PG and not built for an up tempo game but his lack of D is embarrassing...Jack has better D and chemistry with the Young Gunz and this offseason continues to prove it...There is no such thing as the Raps can afford to keep him because of the defensive upgrades, if anything we need to continue with MORE defensive upgrades since Jack will replace any scoring Jose is capable of...

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    Quote RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    Calderon is not only slow for a PG and not built for an up tempo game
    As a point guard, you don't need to have lightning end to end speed to play uptempo. Steve Nash would get destroyed in a foot race against many of his peers.

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