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Has Jose Been Left To Twist In The Wind?

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  • #16
    vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
    umm wattt ?? forget it... you obviously are a master of the the english language.
    Right and you obviously have axes to grind!
    Twitter:@coachclement

    The best way to predict your future is to create it - Peter Drucker

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    • #17
      BCsMaBoi wrote: View Post
      A player has a good season so he tries to get compensated for services rendered.

      What do you expect him to do take a pay cut?

      A player has a limited shelf-life.
      but the OP said calderon was loyal. and im questioning this belief based on calderon's salary. i dont think BC's first offer was that much. so in my opinion, and you dont have to agree, I dont think calderon is AS LOYAL as we think, when he most likely refused the initial offer and waited till he got more.

      now yes, players make a lot of money, but there's no way that calderon should have been payed so much, based on one good season where he split playing time with TJ and played a lot of mins against the bench of other teams.

      so did calderon refuse all other cheaper offers or did BC just offer him this much ?

      if calderon refused, then i am questioning how loyal he is... if bc doesnt give in and say ok here's $45 million is jose still a raptor ?

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      • #18
        BCsMaBoi wrote: View Post
        Right and you obviously have axes to grind!
        when someone tells you to "get real" and doesnt provide any insight or knowledge, they are just wasting time... was it too difficult to just answer my original question from post # 7...

        "how loyal can you be when you ask BC to pay you $45 million over 5 years based on one good season"

        how can you respond with "get real" when someone asks a question ?

        its ok u dont have to respond... but there are some on this forum who ask questions and get answers and LEARN something.. saying get real doesnt really further any knowledge or ideas does it

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        • #19
          Because to me its obvious, negotiations are a "process".

          Loyality has nothing to do with it. I mean I've heard of players taking less to play in a certain situation. But it isn't often the case and it sure wasn't for the Miami triumvirate although they professed it was so.

          Riley tried to work sign-and-trades so they could all get max money. I'm sure that was their understanding when they signed.
          Last edited by StaytheCourse; Sat Aug 14, 2010, 07:53 PM.
          Twitter:@coachclement

          The best way to predict your future is to create it - Peter Drucker

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          • #20
            Jack Armstrong was on the fan and even he basically said that Jose's going to get traded. We've already tried twice and failed, just based on how awkward it would be in training camp, I'm saying Jose's out.

            I do like Jose as a person, it's a shame we're dealing him out, but Jack is cheaper and I think fits better with what we're trying to do. Jose was good at running two-man games, taking care of the ball by basically dominating the handling, but we're not playing like that anymore, and I think his risk averse nature is also working against him in Toronto.

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            • #21
              I saw your post about the Cleveland sign-and-trade and I stand corrected. I'm sure Riley made every effort to accomodate LeBron all the same.
              Twitter:@coachclement

              The best way to predict your future is to create it - Peter Drucker

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              • #22
                Arsenalist wrote: View Post
                Jack Armstrong was on the fan and even he basically said that Jose's going to get traded. We've already tried twice and failed, just based on how awkward it would be in training camp, I'm saying Jose's out.

                I do like Jose as a person, it's a shame we're dealing him out, but Jack is cheaper and I think fits better with what we're trying to do. Jose was good at running two-man games, taking care of the ball by basically dominating the handling, but we're not playing like that anymore, and I think his risk averse nature is also working against him in Toronto.
                I agree with what you say but its unfortunate the way this has played out!

                Can we all lay blame on MJ one more time? That deal would have been so sweet!
                Twitter:@coachclement

                The best way to predict your future is to create it - Peter Drucker

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                • #23
                  BCsMaBoi wrote: View Post
                  I saw your post about the Cleveland sign-and-trade and I stand corrected. I'm sure Riley made every effort to accomodate LeBron all the same.
                  i agree with you that jose plays hard, sacrifices himself for the team, and NEVER complains... he is really good in that sense.

                  i just question if he didnt get the $45 million, would he still be a raptor. but i agree with you on everything else.

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                  • #24
                    vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                    i agree with you that jose plays hard, sacrifices himself for the team, and NEVER complains... he is really good in that sense.

                    i just question if he didnt get the $45 million, would he still be a raptor. but i agree with you on everything else.
                    Peace!
                    Twitter:@coachclement

                    The best way to predict your future is to create it - Peter Drucker

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                    • #25
                      vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                      how loyal can you be when you ask BC to pay you $45 million over 5 years based on one good season ?
                      I'm not sure I understand this question. Calderon's agent negotiated for the best possible deal for his client. It is Calderon's obligation to play to the best of his ability to honour the length and value of his contract. Loyalty has nothing to do with his contract. The lucrative offer of that magnitude can make any player stay. So in a sense, he wasn't loyal - perhaps he was overpaid to stay.

                      I was hoping that there would be a renewed Calderon with the departure of Bosh. However, it is because of Bosh's departure that spells the end of JC. I can see Calderon thriving with the Knicks. I think him and Stoudemire could be a lethal 2-man combo. Personally, if Curry's coming here then we should have Wilson Chandler along with him as well (which New York was open to trading BTW).
                      Last edited by Balls of Steel; Sat Aug 14, 2010, 10:19 PM.
                      “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                      • #26
                        vinnie_paz wrote: View Post
                        i agree with you that jose plays hard, sacrifices himself for the team, and NEVER complains... he is really good in that sense.

                        i just question if he didnt get the $45 million, would he still be a raptor. but i agree with you on everything else.
                        The problem i have with the logic of linking contract size to loyalty is that there are larger conventions and organizational culture at work. Are athlete's overpaid? who knows. BUT what we do know is that the NBA supports the player-agent-gm contract negotiations process, and agents have a very influential role. It is in the best interest of the agent to get the player the most money available perhaps even more so than to that player as an agents earnings are made on commission, the only determining factor in how much money the agent makes is to ensure that his player gets the largest contract. The agent has quite a lot of incentive to convince the player that they should take the most amount that they are offered and should even negotiate for a higher salary. Now don't get me wrong in each individual case of player-agent relationships the player does have the ultimate decision of where to sign and whether to take a pay cut or ask for more; however, when you repeat this process over every player in the league taking the most possible money becomes the standard. Even though an individual may have been willing to take less, or ultimately does, they are conditioned by their environment that "getting the best contract" is the norm, and negotiating for less is the anomaly. Now, unless we are willing to paint every player in the NBA who enters into contract negotiations with an agent disloyal, it is unjustified to point on one player.

                        Furthermore, aren't you partly questioning his loyalty because he didn't meet expectations? If he had exceeded expectations, and his contract was viewed as a steal would he have been more loyal for 'settling' for a smaller contract? We cannot judge contracts and loyalty through hindsight.

                        Lastly, even if you take the position that it was a bad contract at the time it seems that you are assuming that they initial offered Jose less and he fought for a better contract. We are not privy to those negotiations, for all we know Jose's agent wanted more for him but Jose opted not to ask for more because he liked Toronto, or he could have been offered more from another team and chose to sign with Toronto for non-economic reasons (aka loyalty) I don't have the answers, but unless i'm wrong neither do you.

                        The whole point is that since we are not privy to the process of negotiation that takes place between the agent the management and the player it is difficult to determine how belligerent a player is being in contract negotiations; especially given that the greater culture is influenced by agents, whose motives impact both the player and the front office. Also whether or not a contract is good or bad is often determined by what happens after the contract is signed ie the player's success, if a player under performs versus their contract but has had a good attitude and hard work, do we blame the ownership or the player? Is it realistic for a player to be able to accurate gauge his(or her) monetary value over the length of the contract? If so perhaps we could expect players to correct the mistakes of manage and argue for a lower salary, personally, i don't think it realistic to expect players to be able to make those person evaluations accurately; sometimes because over analytical capabilities and perhaps more often because of personal perception filters. Perhaps if agents were paid a base salary as opposed to commission it would be easier to separate the intentions of the player from the intentions of the agent. Unfortunately we cannot. In light of these reasons I think that it is not a worthwhile exercise to question any player's loyalty because of their contract, unless their are other factors that would contribute to this line or reasoning. In the case of Jose, I haven't seen any other evidence. Feel free to rebut.
                        "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                        "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                        "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                        • #27
                          My own personal opinion is that Jose has been left twisting in the wind; however, he is a class act and that if he is back next year he'll be embraced by the fan base and supported until he is dealt in december after his stock has risen. Since this thread is about loyalty, how about managerial loyalty? They gave him the contract and I think that they should ride him out and not necessarily trade him. Yes they are going in a different direction but that doesn't mean that Jose will not fit. Chemistry is more alchemy then science and I think there's a good chance we'll see a renewed Jose this season lobbing alley-opps like its his JAY OH BEE. Is his contract bad for what he has done, yes. However, it could be worse (aka TJ Ford and Indiana!). I think that Jose should be given the opportunity to play with these young guys until at least december. If you really don't see him as working in the long time plans then make a move, but if he could why not keep him? Sometimes the management should show a little loyalty too!
                          "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                          "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                          "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                          • #28
                            Brasky wrote: View Post
                            If the team is indeed looking to up the tempo and put a new emphasis on defense, Calderon is the worst possible fit, since he does neither.
                            When did we put a new emphasis on defense? We signed Kleiza, traded for Barbosa, have Bargnani as our interior presence, and Amir hasn't shown he can stay out of foul trouble.

                            Anyways, I think José is a great teammate but I don't think we can afford to keep him due to all our liabilities on defense and the fact that the point guard position is so crucial. His contract is also tough to swallow.

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                            • #29
                              It's pretty incredible how we can go from MVP chants to this, in the space of 20 months.

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                              • #30
                                I don't know how many of you saw Team USA play today.

                                The ESPN announcers, I can't recall who they were, were talking about the Spanish National Team and they mentioned Calderon.

                                Then one of them said and I ain't kidding

                                "Calderon's defense is so bad he couldn't even guard either one of us"

                                We all know that Calderon's defense is bad but that is really a low blow especially to say on National TV during a basketball game.

                                That is another example of what ESPN thinks of the Raptors players and I am sure the Raptors team in general.

                                As ESPN goes so goes all the others in the LSSM.

                                I don't expect that the Raptors will receive much love from the LSSM in 10-11 unless they start winning

                                They need to come out really aggressive in the pre-season on both sides of the ball to start getting the officials used to it. This will overcome some of officials unconscious ESPN related attitude. "If ESPN says they stink and are mocking them why should we give them any questionable calls?"
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                                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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