Bargs' Defense Not Improved Over The Summer

[RapthoseLeafs]

These Bargnani Forum discussions really make me wonder how bored Rap fans are right now – or maybe that should be impatient.
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In regards to Andrea’s game against Nikola Pekovic, taking this size of a stat (one game) and making a generalization, would be one more reason why your ass would be fired, should you be working for Angus Reid or Ekos.
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Taking 10 games (sans Bosh), and making a call (or is it only reinforcing bias), wouldn’t score you much more either with the Boss.
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“Bargnani Defense not Improved over the Summer”
That statement right there says it all: “We are the boss, and if we wanna run your ass out of T.O., we can do that. And we don’t care if the mistake hasn’t happened yet. If we think you’re gonna f*@k up, start packing your bags. ”
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I’m glad some people aren’t the GM. They would change this team more than BC does. A thought I already have a little trouble with.
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Of course, some people might ask why do I bother responding?
Because I’m bored too.
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[Tim W.]

I agree his rebounding isn't the best. To call him heartless, useless and to trade him aren't stat based. We've looked at this subject 10 ways to sunday and its time to move on. We can reopen the subject when the season starts. Blast me all you like if I'm wrong

I never called him heartless or useless. Not once. As I've previously said, I have never once said something personal about him.

As for wanting to trade him, that's not slanderous. That's simply expressing an opinion. I WOULD like for him to be traded. Why do you have a problem with that?

*This post has been deleted*

Speaking of slander, THIS is slander. You are calling me a liar despite evidence to the contrary. I've given you evidence, but you chose not to believe it. You're changing the argument from one about a player to a personal one. If you continue to do so I don't think there's any point in responding anymore.

[vinnie_paz]

Gasol, BOsh, Nowitzki and kevin garnet were all first options by their 3 rd year. Bargni has never been a first option untill this coming season. You dip shits can say all you like but I will let this years stats back me up. Start living in the future not the past. SIrchilly your oppinion means even less then buddah and timw. You guys say that were emotional for defending ANdrea but it sounds like all three of you guys have an agenda to slander Bargni.

when you know your going to be right it feels a lot better. The raptors will be as a good or better without BOSH and tuRK. Just like the Blue Jays. All the analysts had the JAYS last in the division and conference. The jays lost their star player and seem to be better. I would love to bet each one of you guys that ANdrea will average over 20 points a game and 8 rebounds a game. $20 each if your man enough.
Check out my website www.guelphbball.com

so your evidence to prove that bargs will be better is:

by using the much higher rate of improvement shown from KG, gasol, and dirk.

the fact that bosh is gone, so now all of a sudden andrea will somehow learn to play defense.

and the fact that the jays improved after losing a star player.

[RaptorRoo]

Stats can be skewed and presented in a way to favour an viewpoint...All the Bargnani haters on here need to take a step back and think it through LOGICALLY...Why do you think he's rebounding WAS lower than it could or should be? Perhaps, it had something to do with a certain player that was the cornerstone of the franchise for the last 7 years who is no longer here...Bargs role was different then, and since bball is played by a team in a specific system you need to allow for that fact. In other words, Bargs obvious talent and development over the years is proof that given an opportunity in a more PROMINENT role (to score, rebound and get to the line) he will rise to the challenge...

[vinnie_paz]

*This post has been deleted*

but what does that have to do with anything ?

raptorroo are you eleven years old ?

[vinnie_paz]

Stats can be skewed and presented in a way to favour an viewpoint...All the Bargnani haters on here need to take a step back and think it through LOGICALLY...Why do you think he's rebounding WAS lower than it could or should be? Perhaps, it had something to do with a certain player that was the cornerstone of the franchise for the last 7 years who is no longer here...Bargs role was different then, and since bball is played by a team in a specific system you need to allow for that fact. In other words, Bargs obvious talent and development over the years is proof that given an opportunity in a more PROMINENT role (to score, rebound and get to the line) he will rise to the challenge...

how can something you predict to happen in the future be proof ?

[RaptorRoo]

Vinnie_Paz: Thanks for helping us make our point...Gasol and Dirk developed there early skills in EUROPE much like guess who??? Also, their players who got BETTER after 4 seasons. Andrea CAN play defense but it does need to improve and IT WILL now that he is the focal point of team. How much it will improve has yet to be seen, BUT until then those that want to trade him when he'll just be starting to hit his stride in becoming a 20 plus and 10 guy need to give their heads a GOOD SHAKE!

[vinnie_paz]

Vinnie_Paz: No, I'm not eleven years old. Are you mentally challenged? If so, I apologize for my posts hurting your little feelings. His progression in development over the last 4 seasons are recorded in unbiased STATS (ie.PROOF), the same kind that some of you on here are obsessed with...

lol ok without any offensive comments, can you explain why you are using the development in gasol's game to andrea's ?

just b/c they both came from europe doesnt mean they will develop the same, and im sure you know that. now i have posted the stats from gasol's rookie year.

9 boards, 2 blocks.

so gasol and kg, and bogut and everyone else, were already decent rebounders before they entered the nba.

i am only asking you to share some knowledge on why you think that bargnani will be a better rebounder ?

so far all i've heard is:

because gasol and kg got better so will bargs.

because bosh is gone, so now bargs will step up.

because the jays lost their star player and had a decent season.

would you agree that none of these are legitimate reasons to say bargs will be a better defender this year?

obviously offensively he will have better stats due to more touches and plays being run for him.. but that doesnt mean he will rebound better does it ?

if you think it does mean he will rebound better that's totally fine and im not sure why you opened this thread since you are so positive that bargs will be a great ( i think you said 22 n 8).

[vinnie_paz]

Vinnie_Paz: Thanks for helping us make our point...Gasol and Dirk developed there early skills in EUROPE much like guess who??? Also, their players who got BETTER after 4 seasons

in kg's 2nd season he averaged 8 rbds, 2 blocks. not his 4th season his SECOND season.
gasol we have mentioned.

bogut 2nd season 12 ps 9 rbds

even mehmet okur in his 1st season playing 30+ mins got 9 rebounds.

so who are these bigs you keep mentioning that took 4 seasons to develop ?

[vinnie_paz]

Andrea CAN play defense but it does need to improve and IT WILL now that he is the focal point of team.

again, not trying to be rude, but if you can help me understand how making a player the focal point of the team would improve their defense ?

[nubreed000]

Gasol, BOsh, Nowitzki and kevin garnet were all first options by their 3 rd year. Bargni has never been a first option untill this coming season. You dip shits can say all you like but I will let this years stats back me up. Start living in the future not the past. SIrchilly your oppinion means even less then buddah and timw. You guys say that were emotional for defending ANdrea but it sounds like all three of you guys have an agenda to slander Bargni.

when you know your going to be right it feels a lot better. The raptors will be as a good or better without BOSH and tuRK. Just like the Blue Jays. All the analysts had the JAYS last in the division and conference. The jays lost their star player and seem to be better. I would love to bet each one of you guys that ANdrea will average over 20 points a game and 8 rebounds a game. $20 each if your man enough.
Check out my website www.guelphbball.com

pretty sure i said this in either this thread or another 1 but Bargs averaging 20/8 isn't anything to cheer about since he will be the number 1 option. It's a given. If he averages over that then I'll be impressed. If he takes over in the 4th and plays like a star in the clutch then I'll be impressed. If he hooks up his team mates with nice passing and easy buckets then I'll be impressed (this is 1 thing that always pissed me off about Bosh: his tunnel vision)

[vinnie_paz]

after bosh's injury in april

bargnani's rebound and minutes

bos - 5 rdbs - 38:50

atl - 6 rbds - 37:16

chi - 5rbds - 39:23

det - 7 rbds - 38:03

nyk - 4 rbds - 33:37

so where is this progression that you have mentioned ?

no bosh, why didnt bargs step it up ?

again, not trying to be rude, just trying to learn why you think bargs is destined to have a better rebounding season.

[RapthoseLeafs]

again, not trying to be rude, but if you can help me understand how making a player the focal point of the team would improve their defense ?

We can all agree that Andrea will not be the Leader type - as Jack is trying to initiate. But when a player is given responsibility to lead a team with his play, players do step up. Whether Bargnani will, is something to be determined. As a Raptor fan, it gets tiresome to defend any player on this team. Homerism aside, I would do the same for the young guns (or rookies) after a few years (barring abject failure). Every player has a role - no matter how small it may be.
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Without the benefit of hindsight (a well used commodity around here), defining a player (like AB), based on 5 games (without Bosh), is akin to celebrating All Stars ... Moon & Pops. Just like Hedo isn't a rebounding machine, based on one 19 rebound game (vs Chicago no less).
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All this talk about Bosh gone, and Raptors having to rely on Andrea's defense (or lack thereof), misses one simple point. Put a Noah type (emphasis on type), next to Andrea; add Amir & Davis, and you have a potent front court. Adding all that up, with a Noah type fetching 10 million (T.O.'s special wanna play in Canada price), and you have a player total ~ 25/26 million. Plenty of cap room to fix the 1 - 3 positions.
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To me, that's what seems more important than micromanaging Bargnani's summer. The trade deadline (and prior) has great significance with the Raptors - it's the opportunity for BC to exercise his expiring contracts, and TPE (30+ million - counting a number of players). It may happen well before the deadline, but hopefully for only a small portion (such as Evans). The deadline tends to bring out the crazies. Ainge knows exactly how that feels.
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[Krix]

Man, you can spot a Bargnani supporter a mile away.

[vinnie_paz]

We can all agree that Andrea will not be the Leader type - as Jack is trying to initiate. But when a player is given responsibility to lead a team with his play, players do step up. Whether Bargnani will, is something to be determined. As a Raptor fan, it gets tiresome to defend any player on this team. Homerism aside, I would do the same for the young guns (or rookies) after a few years (barring abject failure). Every player has a role - no matter how small it may be.
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Without the benefit of hindsight (a well used commodity around here), defining a player (like AB), based on 5 games (without Bosh), is akin to celebrating All Stars ... Moon & Pops. Just like Hedo isn't a rebounding machine, based on one 19 rebound game (vs Chicago no less).
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All this talk about Bosh gone, and Raptors having to rely on Andrea's defense (or lack thereof), misses one simple point. Put a Noah type (emphasis on type), next to Andrea; add Amir & Davis, and you have a potent front court. Adding all that up, with a Noah type fetching 10 million (T.O.'s special wanna play in Canada price), and you have a player total ~ 25/26 million. Plenty of cap room to fix the 1 - 3 positions.
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To me, that's what seems more important than micromanaging Bargnani's summer. The trade deadline (and prior) has great significance with the Raptors - it's the opportunity for BC to exercise his expiring contracts, and TPE (30+ million - counting a number of players). It may happen well before the deadline, but hopefully for only a small portion (such as Evans). The deadline tends to bring out the crazies. Ainge knows exactly how that feels.
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not sure why you used my quote at the top.

and

are you suggesting that it is possible for the raps to acquire a noah TYPE for some TPE and evans ?

[vinnie_paz]

Without the benefit of hindsight (a well used commodity around here), defining a player (like AB), based on 5 games (without Bosh), is akin to celebrating All Stars ... Moon & Pops. Just like Hedo isn't a rebounding machine, based on one 19 rebound game (vs Chicago no less).

but 5 of the most important games in the season for the raptors, and this player who some believe has made significant progress in rebounding couldnt even get ONE game with 8 rebounds yet played heavy minutes and didnt have the usual excuse of:

"bosh gets all the rebounds"

if he had made progress, i think we would have seen something in those games which the playoffs were depended upon.

do you understand ? if bargs made progress, and had the capability to lead a team, those 5 games would have been the time. and to not even have ONE game where he even hinted at double digit rebounds is the point.

[Tim W.]

Stats can be skewed and presented in a way to favour an viewpoint...All the Bargnani haters on here need to take a step back and think it through LOGICALLY...Why do you think he's rebounding WAS lower than it could or should be? Perhaps, it had something to do with a certain player that was the cornerstone of the franchise for the last 7 years who is no longer here...Bargs role was different then, and since bball is played by a team in a specific system you need to allow for that fact. In other words, Bargs obvious talent and development over the years is proof that given an opportunity in a more PROMINENT role (to score, rebound and get to the line) he will rise to the challenge...

First of all, I'm not a Bargnani "hater". I don't hate him. Calling someone a hater is simply a way to discount their argument.

Bargnani's rebounding is poor. There can be no debate of this. He was 79th in the league in rebounding per minute (for players that played at least 70 games or grabbed 800 rebounds). Considering there are only 60 starting big men in the league, that says a lot right there. It doesn't matter that Bosh was on the team. The Raptors weren't a good rebounding team even with Bosh, so there WAS a need for someone else to grab more rebounds. There were plenty available.

As for Bosh preventing Bargnani from getting to the line, the evidence shows that is false. Players get to the line at a certain rate whether they are the 1st option or 12th. That doesn't change no matter how many shots they take. I explain it in detail here...
http://www.wearingfilm.com/picketfen...-great-scorer/

Tim W: What evidence to the contrary? YOU clearly stated that BC made a definitive statement (and you know what statement it is or in case you forgot go back your early posts), and I called you out on YOUR LIE. I'm still WAITING for your "proof" in the way of an actual recorded interview with BC making that statement. It's not slander when it's the truth...

The evidence was two links to unrelated discussions from a number of people who had heard the interview. That IS evidence. It's obviously not a lie, and I really don't understand at all why you are so adamant that it is. It's rather insulting to be called a liar when I've presented overwhelming evidence that I am not.

Tim W: What evidence do YOU have that Bargnani wont improve? In fact, you've already admitted to seeing STATS (and you included them in one of your posts), that have displayed his progression each season (with the exception of the odd category). This progression may not be astronomical but IT IS PROGRESSION. NOW that Bargs is the focal point of the team his role will OBVIOUSLY change meaning more focus also on D and better Rebounding. Why? Because HE is talented and smart enough to understand this fact and he has continued to work hard this offseason with that in mind.

Again, I've never once said that Bargnani won't improve. And in fact have said the opposite. The difference in our opinion lies with the amount he will improve. The evidence tells me that his improvement won't be great because he's never made any big improvements. 1.1 ppg over four years is certainly not great. Neither is 0.7 rpg over 4 years.

Your claim that his defense and rebounding will improve because he's talented and smart enough isn't a logical argument. First of all, simply because Bargnani is expected to be the focus of the team doesn't mean his rebounding will improve. Rebounding is not linked to your role in the offense. Neither Amir Johnson nor Reggie Evans are involved in the offense, but both had excellent per minute rebounding averages. Secondly, your comment that he is smart, so will know to work hard has no place in the discussion and makes about as much sense as people calling him heartless. Neither you nor I know how he will react. It's a guess about something off the basketball court. When I judge how a player will do, the only thing I use is what I've seen. Anything else isn't logical.

[Buddahfan]

but 5 of the most important games in the season for the raptors, and this player who some believe has made significant progress in rebounding couldnt even get ONE game with 8 rebounds yet played heavy minutes and didnt have the usual excuse of:

"bosh gets all the rebounds"

if he had made progress, i think we would have seen something in those games which the playoffs were depended upon.

do you understand ? if bargs made progress, and had the capability to lead a team, those 5 games would have been the time. and to not even have ONE game where he even hinted at double digit rebounds is the point.

Contrast to Amir who was thrown into the starting lineup for the those five games when he hadn't started all year.

Everyone knows what he did and how he stepped up, yet many of those people say that Amir couldn't do it for a full season.

So what we have is some people saying well we know that Bargnani didn't step it when Bosh was out for those 5 games yet for sure he will step up starting in 10-11 yet Amir who did step it for those 5 games forget it.

Sounds like ye ole double standard.

I don't need to repost Amir's stats for those five games. All real Raptors fans are well aware of them.

Yes I know that Amir played like sheet against the Bulls at the ACC in game #3 of the five. So he just has to man up and step up his games in games like that. Will he. I don't know but I do hope so.

[RaptorRoo]

Vinnie_Paz: Who has "suggested" that Bargs HAS made significant progress in rebounding? IF you read the posts properly you'll find that some of us BELIEVE he WILL make significant progress in his rebounding THIS season. Being the focal point of the team will inspire Bargs to work harder this offseason to improve his rebounding skill set. Why do you assume his development has peaked after 4 seasons? As I have have stated before, I believe that Bargs is a late bloomer, and there IS plenty of evidence of some Big Men getting better after 4 seasons so why is Bargnani any different??? Or is it just Euro bias???
Why are you prepared to write him off based on 5 GAMES last season? Regardless of Bosh not playing in those games, he was still conditioned as a secondary player in rebounding.

[charlz]

after bosh's injury in april

bargnani's rebound and minutes

bos - 5 rdbs - 38:50

atl - 6 rbds - 37:16

chi - 5rbds - 39:23

det - 7 rbds - 38:03

nyk - 4 rbds - 33:37

so where is this progression that you have mentioned ?

no bosh, why didnt bargs step it up ?

again, not trying to be rude, just trying to learn why you think bargs is destined to have a better rebounding season.

that is a great point backed up by facts