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Thread: Bargs' Defense Not Improved Over The Summer

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote jlongs wrote: View Post
    Seems to be exactly the kind of match-up that Bargnani is poor against one-on-one: quick, big, and knows how to use both to his advantage. He kinda reminds me of Demarcus Cousins (minus the jump shot). I don't think it matters that he hasn't played a minute in the NBA (he'll be with the TWolves next season). That's like saying there aren't any good players in International ball that aren't in the NBA.

    That said Bargnani's passion for defense is as nonexistent as ever. It's like he doesn't even try, and relies too much on his size. And I do hope that Colangelo takes the first few months of this season to really ask himself if Bargnani (and his job) is worth keeping. My take is still that he isn't worth anything more than a first big off the bench for offense. Good offensive player, but does not cut it as a starter due to lack of defensive skills and instincts.
    I to think at some point Bargnani could be coming off of the bench if BC doesn't trade him. It will be very interesting this season to see how the Raptors fare with Bargnani non on the court. Yes very interesting indeed.

    No Bosh and No Bagnani on the court. It will be very interesting. I personally think it will go a lot better than people would think at this point.

    We will definitely get the chance to find out starting within a couple of months
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  2. #22
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    We all know Bargs defense is not the best, but we cant keep saying that colangelo needs to trade him just because of his poor defensive skills. You cant all be thinking that BC is so dumb that he doesnt know Bargs cant play D. He knows. Everybody knows. BC and his staff knew before they drafted bargs, im pretty sure that scouting report on him had 0 beside defense. But thats not why BC drafted him, he's a 7 footer who can create his own shot, dribble penetrate and shoot the 3. if you put a defensive center beside him, he's golden. thats why bosh never took the raps anywhere because he cant play D and neither does his center (bargs). Dirk has taken the mavs far coz he's always had damp, and now haywood. bargs was drafted for his offense and not defense so quit forcing him to play D. in the nba, you dont get players because you want to turn them into something, you get them for who they are. if youre a GM and you get an offensive minded player to get him to play defense then youre screwed. BC knows bargs cannot rebound or play D, just look at the players he's surrounding bargs now.
    That's exactly why I would like BC to trade him (or at least get someone to start ahead of him)- the need to surround him with guys to cover up his lack of defense. I agree that had he done that with Bosh, partnered him with a defensive C (who wasn't injury prone and towards the end of his career), we might've had a more success. But Bosh imo, though not great by any means, is a far better defender than Bargnani when he wants to be. Same goes for Dirk, who is a better defender and rebounder (and has higher bball IQ imo) than Bargnani.

    If there's a flaw, then my belief is you need to either fix that flaw, or replace it. I just don't think simply covering it up will do. It might work to some extent, but I doubt it will get you far.

    I believe the reason BC hasn't traded him yet is because he has said time and again to give Bargnani 5 years (was it?) and then judge him then. This season marks year 5, and I just haven't seen any significant improvement, or even potential, from Bargs to qualify him as anything other than a bench player who can provide instant offense. Offense is nice, but if it's all you have and can't even provide average defense, then you just can't cut it as a starter and expect to win.

    That said, I would love to be proven wrong with a better Bargnani this season.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie big red's Avatar
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    Watched the video and yeah, Bargs played like garbage...but it stood out. His one-on-one defence usually doesn't stand out as being that bad, so I'll write this off as a bad game.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    he's a 7 footer who can create his own shot
    This has no real basis in reality. According to Hoopdata, he was assisted on over 75% of all his field goals. This puts him highest on the team in this category. By comparison, Amir is at 67%, Demar is at 67%, Dirk is at 61%, Rashard Lewis is at 70%...

    We'll just have to see how well he performs offensively without Bosh consistently drawing the double team. If history has taught us anything, it's that Bargnani struggles without Bosh in the lineup, and his numbers plummet across the board despite the additional touches.

  5. #25
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    If Bargs doesn't come out of the gate with a new found hunger for the defensive stop in one-on-one AND team situations than trade him with Jose and completely re-shuffle the deck. We've already got Anderson coming off the bench and providing a good scoring (albeit nonexistent defensive) option.

  6. #26
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    At the 1:10 mark of the video says it all and is a "Classic Bargnani Moment". The opponent takes a 3-pointer and he's facing the wrong way (he's facing the shooter deep in the post!!!!) Not only that but if you add his cat-like reflexes, by the time he turns around, Pekovic has already grabbed the rebound and is actually up in the air to score. If you look at these videos, Bargs looks like a helpless 7-foot, 5 year-old kid in the middle of the playground. Call me a basher but I'm calling a spade, a spade!

    There's also a baseline ball fake that Pekovic did not bite on and he was stripped of the ball. The 2006 draft will forever haunt the Raps!!!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  7. #27
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    You mean we already have the poor man's Andrea Bargnani? Dude, I agree with your statement. Someone else in the league needs to lust after this dude cuz I'm really starting to doubt his abilities.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    This has no real basis in reality. According to Hoopdata, he was assisted on over 75% of all his field goals. This puts him highest on the team in this category. By comparison, Amir is at 67%, Demar is at 67%, Dirk is at 61%, Rashard Lewis is at 70%...

    We'll just have to see how well he performs offensively without Bosh consistently drawing the double team. If history has taught us anything, it's that Bargnani struggles without Bosh in the lineup, and his numbers plummet across the board despite the additional touches.
    He actually plays very well with Johnson.

    His offense is a bit better than with Bosh.

    Johnson rolls to the basket so well without the ball that he often takes two players with him thus opening up players for easy uncontested jump shots.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Hassan wrote: View Post
    lol forget bargs lets sign that pekovic guy hes a beast!!!!!
    Too late for that.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Too late for that.
    This guy could probably still help the Raptors if he could stay healthy

    He is only 46.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvydas_Sabonis
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  11. #31
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    Last thought really points to the fact the we may now have to bring in Okafor if Bargs stays. Or heck, just trade him to Emeka straight up to appease Paul. Or maybe that'll make Paul leave NO. I dunno, something's gotta happen and soon.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  12. #32
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Being at PF has NOTHING to do with Bargs ability to use his face up game. In fact, his face up game becomes more of a weapon when he's matched up against slower Centres.
    The problem is the arc gets a little crowded when even your C is out there lining up for a 3.

  13. #33
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    He actually plays very well with Johnson.

    His offense is a bit better than with Bosh.

    Johnson rolls to the basket so well without the ball that he often takes two players with him thus opening up players for easy uncontested jump shots.
    There's no chance in hell that Bargnani and Johnson is a better offensive combination than Bargnani and Bosh. Again, we've already seen on many occasions how Bargnani does without Bosh in the lineup, and it was ugly.

  14. #34
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    Quote G-locity wrote: View Post
    I think its true that Bargs needs a stud at the 5 to take care of the dirty jobs around the paint but if BC can provide this player and bargs still struggles then what? I guess we all just have to see and wait.
    Dorsey/Alabi/Davis/Amir/Evans are all guys who are in the league (fringe or otherwise) to do dirty work - not have set plays run for them. Don't kid yourself BC is getting Bargs beefy dudes to facilitate his finesse game

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    The problem is the arc gets a little crowded when even your C is out there lining up for a 3.
    What, because Amir Johnson and Ed Davis will be hanging out behind the 3 point line? Bargnani will be jacking up 3s no matter what position 'label' you give him. And at this point in his career, taking him away from the arc would be a waste of his limited talents.

  16. #36
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    The problem I continue to have with Bargnani's defense is that he just doesn't play hard. What separates a mediocre defender in the NBA from a quality defender is often how much intensity they bring to that end of the floor when the player they're guarding doesn't have the ball, how quickly they are moving their feet to adjust to the positioning of the players around them, how difficult they make an offensive player's life by pestering, bodying and harassing them into spots they shouldn't be in or aren't comfortable in, creating lower percentage looks and broken plays. Bargs just floats around and lets the offensive player initiate all of the action, allowing them to slip into cracks, to carve out space and to get to their spots. It's not just one bad game, he's that listless nearly every night.

  17. #37
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Looks like the big fella had a bad game that was compounded by the fact that his teammates played worse defense. Andrea looked to be setting his feet and what not but that guy usually had a full head of steam after blowing by somebody before he got to Andrea.

  18. #38
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    There's no chance in hell that Bargnani and Johnson is a better offensive combination than Bargnani and Bosh. Again, we've already seen on many occasions how Bargnani does without Bosh in the lineup, and it was ugly.
    Trash em if you want but here are the stats of

    Bargnani and Bosh vs Bargnani and Johnson vs Bosh and Johnson

    I actually have already posted them but what the heck

    Here are the top five in minutes Bargnani - Johnson Units Calculated W - L Records

    8 – 4
    10 – 4
    7 – 4
    7 – 5
    9 – 5


    http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR12.HTM



    Here are the top five in minutes Bosh – Bargnani five man units Calculated W-L Records

    9 – 20
    15 – 16
    12 – 13
    9 – 2
    10 – 6

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR12.HTM


    Here are the top five in minutes Bosh – Johnson five man units Calculated W-L Records

    8 – 6
    6 – 2
    7 – 4
    4 – 7
    5 – 2

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR13.HTM

    http://nba-25-15.blogspot.com/2010/0...breakdown.html
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  19. #39
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post


    Sure I think they want to move him to PF so he can utilize more of his face up game - but alas many players don't improve after 4 years in the league - Bargs is likely one of them who has realized his potential.
    I couldn't bear to watch Bargs' defense in the video for too long, when scrubs like Pekovic are lighting your ass as an NBA player,

  20. #40
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    What, because Amir Johnson and Ed Davis will be hanging out behind the 3 point line? Bargnani will be jacking up 3s no matter what position 'label' you give him. And at this point in his career, taking him away from the arc would be a waste of his limited talents.
    well yeah thats the idea - but last year with Hedo/Roasho out there - CB was on his own in the key area - and even he was resorting to the J.
    All of which contributed to the raptors being such a terrible rebounding and defending team.

    Now you will see Davis/Alabi/Amir and even Kleiza posting up. whilst Bargs runs to his favorite spot on the ARC. And since they are fringe NBA guys you know they want to please the boss - rebound and repost to Bargs where ever he is.

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