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Bargs' Defense Not Improved Over The Summer

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  • i dont understand why you would think that for BC to say Brandon Roy was the best player coming out of the 2006 draft is a knock on BC or Bargnani ?

    A lot of other GM's passed on Roy, and every GM has some draft picks that if they could go back they would change.

    It's part of the game.

    Manu Ginobli was drafted in the 2nd round. It doesnt mean that all the GM's who had picks in the 1st round are bad or incompetent.

    Just like no one is saying that by BC admitting Roy was the best player, that all of a sudden BC is incompetent.

    A REAL person can look back and say yea maybe I would have drafted Roy instead, but it's ok, we are still good, and getting stronger.

    A FOOL defends their mistakes till the grave and pretends they made all of the right moves ALL OF THE TIME.

    Comment


    • "you look at the top two big man for every Championship team and just about every single one were above average defenders and rebounders. It's hard enough to win a Championship in the NBA. Why make it even harder for yourself? "

      So your telling me Gasol was considered a good defender when he was traded to LA? NO he wasn't. THe fact that Gasol improved his defense at 27 years old (became a better player at 27-28 then he was at 24-25) is a testament that all you dinks on this board don't understand the development of big europeans in the NBA. Remember bargni's still only 24 years old which is the same age as Sonny Weems who everyone thinks is improving. I can't wait to the season starts because thats the only way to shut up the peanut gallery of guys who never played a lick of basketball.

      Comment


      • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
        "you look at the top two big man for every Championship team and just about every single one were above average defenders and rebounders. It's hard enough to win a Championship in the NBA. Why make it even harder for yourself? "

        So your telling me Gasol was considered a good defender when he was traded to LA? NO he wasn't. THe fact that Gasol improved his defense at 27 years old (became a better player at 27-28 then he was at 24-25) is a testament that all you dinks on this board don't understand the development of big europeans in the NBA. Remember bargni's still only 24 years old which is the same age as Sonny Weems who everyone thinks is improving. I can't wait to the season starts because thats the only way to shut up the peanut gallery of guys who never played a lick of basketball.
        Finally someone said it, thankyou. +1

        Comment


        • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
          "you look at the top two big man for every Championship team and just about every single one were above average defenders and rebounders. It's hard enough to win a Championship in the NBA. Why make it even harder for yourself? "

          So your telling me Gasol was considered a good defender when he was traded to LA? NO he wasn't. THe fact that Gasol improved his defense at 27 years old (became a better player at 27-28 then he was at 24-25) is a testament that all you dinks on this board don't understand the development of big europeans in the NBA. Remember bargni's still only 24 years old which is the same age as Sonny Weems who everyone thinks is improving. I can't wait to the season starts because thats the only way to shut up the peanut gallery of guys who never played a lick of basketball.
          Gasol's defense improved because he went to the Lakers who taught him how to utilize his body style and athletic abilities to play defense. You are expecting a lot from Carlesimo - Maybe if he can turn Bargnani into a decent defender he can also fix Johnson's foul problems. Johnson is after all younger than Bargnani, has fewer NBA minutes and like Bargnani never played college ball.

          Here is hoping that Carlesimo can work some magic
          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

          Memories some so sweet, indeed

          Larger Photo of the avatar



          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

          Comment


          • Barg's defense is weaker than weak it takes heart in order to play defense, the desire to shut your man down mentality- that Bargnani lacks from my observations. I believe that we all know who Wright and Jack were both complaining about in the media about not be held accountable for their on court play or lack thereof- Bargnani, by Jay/BC.

            Some folks keep on making comparisons to other players but remember that Bargnani was the #1 overall draft pick- Sonny was a second rounder- do the full math not the self serving half. You don't draft projects number 1 overall especially one's that play the same finesse PF position as your Franchise player- Bosh, at the time as it eventually cost TO that same Franchise players 4 years later as f/a for blindly babying Bargnani.

            Trade Barg's ASAP!!!!!!!

            Comment


            • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
              "you look at the top two big man for every Championship team and just about every single one were above average defenders and rebounders. It's hard enough to win a Championship in the NBA. Why make it even harder for yourself? "

              So your telling me Gasol was considered a good defender when he was traded to LA? NO he wasn't. THe fact that Gasol improved his defense at 27 years old (became a better player at 27-28 then he was at 24-25) is a testament that all you dinks on this board don't understand the development of big europeans in the NBA. Remember bargni's still only 24 years old which is the same age as Sonny Weems who everyone thinks is improving. I can't wait to the season starts because thats the only way to shut up the peanut gallery of guys who never played a lick of basketball.
              Apparently you didn't watch much Pau Gasol before he joined the Lakers. He was a half decent defender who's biggest problem was that he simply wasn't strong enough to handle centers, which was the position he played, at the time. He was a pretty good team defender already, however. When he joined the Lakers, he was able to move to PF, where he didn't have to battle the bigger, stronger players and could use his quickness more. The LEAST of Bargnani's problems on defense is guarding bigger, stronger players. In fact, that's his best attribute on defense, guarding big men in the post.

              It's great that you think that Bargnani is going to become a good defender and rebounder, but there's simply no indication he will be. Obviously the longer a player plays in the league, the better he will be, but that doesn't mean he's going to become good at something that he was poor at before. The majority of European players who are good defenders came over as good defender. And the majority that came over not being good defenders never became good defenders.

              Again, you're completely discounting the skill involved in playing defense. If Bargnani can become a good defender, why can't Amir Johnson become a good scorer? There are far more instances of players who couldn't shoot learning how to shoot (Bruce Bowen, Jason Kidd), than poor defenders learning to become good ones.

              As for the insults, I'll spare you them. And I've played basketball and watched it for more than 25 years. I'm pretty sure I know a thing or two about it.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
              Follow me on Twitter.

              Comment


              • Frankthetank wrote:
                *This post has been deleted*
                Good for you.

                You may have played the game but that doesn't mean you know basketball.

                The Johnson situation is entirely different from Bargnani's.

                Bargnani was a number #1 pick by frankly a franchise that has not done too well over the last four seasons. So he has had plenty of opportunity to develop his game. It's about a heck of lot more than filling out your body. Yes it helps like it has helped KD become a better all around player. Last season, his third at the age of 21 he raised his rebound rate to 6.9 per 36 minutes. Bargnani by contrast last season his fourth as opposed to KD's third and at the age of 24 instead of KD's 21 still managed only 6.3 rebounds per 36 minutes.

                Lets see what happens to both their respective rebound rates after their fifth season in the league. My guess is that KD will continue to average more rebounds per 36 minutes than Bargnani though I don't expect either to increase their rates much if any at all after their respective fifth seasons.

                Johnson was a number #56 pick by a team that went deep into the playoffs his first three season's in the league. Even in his fourth and last season in Detroit the Pistons made the playoffs. Johnson was indeed lighter when he first came into the league than he is now. No one will argue against that. But it wasn't his lack of weight/muscle that prevented the Pistons from giving him the minutes that Bargnani got in his first four years with the Raptors.

                The Pistons depth up front as well as the fact the Pistons during the Joe Dumars years as GM have never and I mean never developed a solid big man greatly retarded Johnson's growth as a player, not his lack of weight or muscle.

                Even Okur who they drafted never played that well for the Pistons. Larry Brown coached the Pistons to the NBA title in June 2004 while he kept Okur basically pinned to the bench during the playoffs. Okur then signed with Jazz and has excelled under Sloan. However, the Pistons did nothing to develop Okur's game beyond what it was when they drafted him out of Turkey.


                Johnson'r rebounding rate per 36 minutes was actually a lot higher in 07-08 when he was 20 years old, had his first meaningful NBA minutes and was a lot less muscular than he was last season


                Johnson's rebound rate per 36 minutes
                ------------------------------------
                07-08-------11.1
                08-09--------9.2
                09-10--------9.8

                Sorry but your line of "I played the game" doesn't hold water my friend.

                http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsam01.html
                Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Thu Aug 19, 2010, 09:29 AM.
                Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                Memories some so sweet, indeed

                Larger Photo of the avatar



                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                Comment


                • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  Apparently you didn't watch much Pau Gasol before he joined the Lakers. He was a half decent defender who's biggest problem was that he simply wasn't strong enough to handle centers, which was the position he played, at the time. He was a pretty good team defender already, however. When he joined the Lakers, he was able to move to PF, where he didn't have to battle the bigger, stronger players and could use his quickness more. The LEAST of Bargnani's problems on defense is guarding bigger, stronger players. In fact, that's his best attribute on defense, guarding big men in the post.

                  It's great that you think that Bargnani is going to become a good defender and rebounder, but there's simply no indication he will be. Obviously the longer a player plays in the league, the better he will be, but that doesn't mean he's going to become good at something that he was poor at before. The majority of European players who are good defenders came over as good defender. And the majority that came over not being good defenders never became good defenders.

                  Again, you're completely discounting the skill involved in playing defense. If Bargnani can become a good defender, why can't Amir Johnson become a good scorer? There are far more instances of players who couldn't shoot learning how to shoot (Bruce Bowen, Jason Kidd), than poor defenders learning to become good ones.

                  As for the insults, I'll spare you them. And I've played basketball and watched it for more than 25 years. I'm pretty sure I know a thing or two about it.


                  http://www.myteespot.com/Ka-Pow-Batm...mpaign=froogle
                  Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                  Memories some so sweet, indeed

                  Larger Photo of the avatar



                  “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                  Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                  Comment


                  • Frankthetank wrote:
                    *This post has been deleted*
                    wow you should try out for the raptors.
                    Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Thu Aug 19, 2010, 09:30 AM.

                    Comment


                    • RaptorRoo wrote:
                      *This post has been deleted*
                      Well, it's actually "you're", not "your". Also, you seem to be far, far too emotional about this subject, which is probably clouding your judgement. It's certainly clouding your argument. I'm not really sure why you're so upset that Colangelo stated that the best player from the 2006 draft was Brandon Roy. Why does this upset you so much? Do you disagree?

                      As for the articles, they state what Colangelo said. I heard it myself. He said that no one could have predicted that Brandon Roy would have been the best player in the draft, that no one had him as the best player, that other teams passed on him and that he's still happy with his selection. I'm obviously not lying, yet you seem to want to cling to your argument.

                      If you want to continue to post here, I'd advise you not to take criticisms of players so personally. You launch into personal attacks against the poster, rather than try and debate the argument. If you can't take criticism of players you like, I suggest you stick to websites where criticizing of Raptors is not allowed. It is here.
                      Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Thu Aug 19, 2010, 09:16 AM.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

                      Comment


                      • hmm pau gasol in his ROOKIE year, averaged 8.9 rebounds per game....

                        BARGS in his FOURTH year, averaged 6.2 rebounds per game...

                        not sure why you are using gasol as a reference to say bargs will improve... SOME players improve SOME DONT... but gasol came into the league ALREADY A GOOD REBOUNDER.

                        fyi - not that stats are everything but in gasol's rookie year he averaged 2.1 blocks...

                        so wouldnt you agree that he using the progress gasol has made to imply bargs will have similar improvement is completely ridiculous ?

                        we can all hope that he improves for the sake of the raptors, but as of today, there is absolutely no evidence that he will be any better.

                        Comment


                        • Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          Well, it's actually "you're", not "your". Also, you seem to be far, far too emotional about this subject, which is probably clouding your judgement. It's certainly clouding your argument. I'm not really sure why you're so upset that Colangelo stated that the best player from the 2006 draft was Brandon Roy. Why does this upset you so much? Do you disagree?

                          As for the articles, they state what Colangelo said. I heard it myself. He said that no one could have predicted that Brandon Roy would have been the best player in the draft, that no one had him as the best player, that other teams passed on him and that he's still happy with his selection. I'm obviously not lying, yet you seem to want to cling to your argument.

                          If you want to continue to post here, I'd advise you not to take criticisms of players so personally. You launch into personal attacks against the poster, rather than try and debate the argument. If you can't take criticism of players you like, I suggest you stick to websites where criticizing of Raptors is not allowed. It is here.

                          +10


                          Tim W.
                          ---------
                          You are on a roll today. No way IMMA B mess'n w/ what ur writ'n 2day.
                          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                          Memories some so sweet, indeed

                          Larger Photo of the avatar



                          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                          Comment


                          • Gasol, BOsh, Nowitzki and kevin garnet were all first options by their 3 rd year. Bargni has never been a first option untill this coming season. You dip shits can say all you like but I will let this years stats back me up. Start living in the future not the past. SIrchilly your oppinion means even less then buddah and timw. You guys say that were emotional for defending ANdrea but it sounds like all three of you guys have an agenda to slander Bargni.

                            when you know your going to be right it feels a lot better. The raptors will be as a good or better without BOSH and tuRK. Just like the Blue Jays. All the analysts had the JAYS last in the division and conference. The jays lost their star player and seem to be better. I would love to bet each one of you guys that ANdrea will average over 20 points a game and 8 rebounds a game. $20 each if your man enough.
                            Check out my website www.guelphbball.com

                            Comment


                            • Frankthetank wrote: View Post
                              Gasol, BOsh, Nowitzki and kevin garnet were all first options by their 3 rd year. Bargni has never been a first option untill this coming season. You dip shits can say all you like but I will let this years stats back me up. Start living in the future not the past. SIrchilly your oppinion means even less then buddah and timw. You guys say that were emotional for defending ANdrea but it sounds like all three of you guys have an agenda to slander Bargni.

                              when you know your going to be right it feels a lot better. The raptors will be as a good or better without BOSH and tuRK. Just like the Blue Jays. All the analysts had the JAYS last in the division and conference. The jays lost their star player and seem to be better. I would love to bet each one of you guys that ANdrea will average over 20 points a game and 8 rebounds a game. $20 each if your man enough.
                              Check out my website www.guelphbball.com
                              Man, your website needs work. Here's the website of the league I play in
                              http://www.hoopzbasketball.com

                              Comment


                              • Frankthetank wrote:
                                *This post has been deleted*
                                Using statistics to point out deficiencies is not 'slander'.

                                The only thing close to 'slander' is when you attack the other forum members with insults.
                                Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Thu Aug 19, 2010, 09:33 AM.

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