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Thread: How Would This Raptors Five Match Up vs The Thunder Starters?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Default How Would This Raptors Five Match Up vs The Thunder Starters?

    A couple of caveats here

    1. No one on the Raptors is going to be able to match up with KD. This is a given.
    2. I am looking at this come next Feb - March when Davis has some NBA experience
    3. Assume that Johnson can stay on the court for 30 plus minutes. Yea all Johnson fans can continue to dream Well it is off-season so why not.

    PF - Johnson vs J. Green - Two young athletic guys who can run the court and defend. Green relies a lot on the three point shot for his offense. Johnson relies more on the pick and roll and post up game for his offense - Slight edge to the Johnson because he is a lot more efficient on offense

    C - Davis vs N. Krstic - Nasty mean SOB European - Not much talent - Only still starting by default. Will Ubaka replace him as a starter before the end of 10-11? Davis- Unknown what he will do once the real season begins in October - However, we do know that he run, jump, is long. He can also defend, block shots and has a very nice developing mid range game beside what he can do around the rim on offense. - Edge Davis though not by much if we are talking Ubaka and not Krstic. If Krstic or even Mullins big edge Davis

    SF - Wright vs KD - If anyone on the Raptors would have a chance to at least slow down KD a bit it is Wright - Big Edge KD obviously

    SG - DeRozan vs Hardin - When DeRozan went up against Hardin in the NCAA; i.e. Trojans vs Sun Devils teams split the two games. DeRozan outscored Hardin 41 - 23 total in those two games. By next February if not even Nov - Edge DeRozan.

    PG - Jack vs Westbrook - Westbrook is an excellent defender, extremely quick off of the dribble and can dish out the dimes. His mid and long range games are still a work in progress. Jack started one game last season vs the Thunder. Westbrook outscored him 14 - 11. Westbrook also had 10 dimes vs only 2 for Jack and doubled Jack's steal total of two - Big edge Westbrook

    Off of the face of it it looks like a big good sized edge to the Thunder because of KD and Westbrook. Nothing new here.

    However what I do find interesting is that I think Johnson, if he solves his foul problem, will become better than Green, DeRozan could become a lot better than Hardin and Davis will for sure become better than Krstic and probably even Ubaka to say nothing of that Mullins guy. So it looks like going forward that the Raptors could have the Thunder beaten by a good collective margin at three of the five starting positions.

    Can Wright can develop into a decent scorer and a lock down defender at the #3? From what we have read coming out of New Orleans right now he plays fairly decently at the #4 and not so good at the #3. We will clearly know more about this by next spring. I am not looking for him to become a big time scorer but with his athleticism and the Raptors playing an up tempo type offense he become become decent enough on offense at the #3 especially if he can reach his potential as a lock down defender. If there is one position in the NBA where you want a lock down defender or close to it, it is the #3.

    That leaves the PG position - We all know that the Raptors need to upgrade this position something awful. This by far is their current biggest need player personnel wise. Hopefully BC knows this and is trying to address it.

    If there was a way to move Bargnani and or Calderon for a young top 10 NBA point guard I would do it in a second. If a trade can't be made to acquire the PG that the Raptors need to become a playoff team over the next 5 seasons then maybe BC can find one in the June 2011 draft.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 11:41 AM.
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    Quick thing: HardEn and Ibaka
    And I'm predicting that Aldrich will start at centre, but I have no clue how he'd match up against Davis, they have pretty different styles.
    Johnson will probably become a better PF than Green, but mostly just because Green is a natural SF and is just forced to play the PF because of Durant.
    Last edited by Kennay; Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 12:06 PM.

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    I think Cole Aldrich may be starting at centre for the Thunder by the end of the season... and as a true centre would have an advantage over anything the Raptors could throw at them. Yah I just said it... it six months Aldrich will be a better all around centre than Bargnani.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie dykers's Avatar
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    Ed Davis is not a center. Amir Johnson is a bench player and is nowhere near Green. The only two players on the Raptors worth mentioning in this debate are Davis and Derozan, as they are relatively comparable to Green and Harden. The raptors need to add a top-3 pick at SF and a top-15 pick at PG if they want even begin drawing comparisons to OKC (a top 2 team in the West).

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    Raptors Republic Rookie dykers's Avatar
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    Quote black angus wrote: View Post
    Yah I just said it... it six months Aldrich will be a better all around centre than Bargnani.
    While I can't stand Bargnani, to think that Cole Aldrich as a rookie will be better than Bargnani is completely moronic.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jordan-Drexler's Avatar
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    Wouldn't Kleiza's size help against KD. Or We could Put Ed Davis at the 4 and Slide amir to the 3 at certain times to mess with KD

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    Raptors Republic Rookie JYD18's Avatar
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    Quote Jordan-Drexler wrote: View Post
    Wouldn't Kleiza's size help against KD. Or We could Put Ed Davis at the 4 and Slide amir to the 3 at certain times to mess with KD
    Kleiza looked alright against KD in USA vs. Lithuania.

    KD is a nightmare matchup though. He's a small forward with guard skills and speed, the length of a 4 and wingspan of a center. He was basically born to play basketball.

    Link below is a link of Pops vs Ibaka in a Spanish Dunk contest. Dude is mad athletic. He's my pick for the guy ending the games, even if he isn't starting.

    http://acbtv.acb.com/video/843
    Last edited by JYD18; Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 12:46 PM. Reason: found a link
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote dykers wrote: View Post
    Ed Davis is not a center. Amir Johnson is a bench player and is nowhere near Green. The only two players on the Raptors worth mentioning in this debate are Davis and Derozan, as they are relatively comparable to Green and Harden. The raptors need to add a top-3 pick at SF and a top-15 pick at PG if they want even begin drawing comparisons to OKC (a top 2 team in the West).
    You appear to going with LSSM on this

    Let's see if Johnson can change some opinions by the NBA 2011 All-Star game.

    P.S. By the way I do see him as a 25 mpg player in 10-11. Whether he will become a 30 mpg and a legit starter we should know 4sure by next spring at the latest.

    You could be correct. We shall see
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    Green got cut from the olympic team actually. And there were people before you who said Amir and Green could not be compared. And you don't need to have played basketball to evaluate basketball players. Don't go around insulting everyone at once, I bet there are people on this forum who could wipe the floor with you in a game and in a debate.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie dykers's Avatar
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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    *This post has been deleted*
    Obviously Bargnani starts on our team. You seem to have missed the point. The question (at least as I responded to it) was one of comparing the "young core" of the Raptors to that of the Thunder. Bargnani, turning 25 and entering his 5th season, doesn't really figure within this comparison.
    Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 09:22 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Here is a comparison of some career numbers Green vs Amir

    Stat--------------Green-------Amir
    ------------------------------------------
    Games-------------240--------217
    Minutes----------8,166--------3,291
    TS%--------------.522---------.621
    eFG%-------------.482---------.600
    PER---------------12.7--------16.2
    Reb per 36 min-----6.1---------9.9
    Off Rating---------102---------121
    Def Rating---------108---------105
    Wins Shares-------11.0--------10.9
    WS/48------------.064--------.159
    PF per 36 minutes---2.7---------6.5

    There is not one key stat other than fouls per 36 minutes that Green does better in than Amir and in most of them except for Defensive Rating and career Win Shares Amir is significantly better than Green. The only reason that Green's career Win Shares number is the same as Amir's is because Green has played over 2.5 X more career minutes than Amir.

    When you compare their on court effectiveness Amir is definitely better than Green. I don't care whether Green got an invite to the Olympic team, can anyone say Georgetown alumni political BS, or not.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...greenje02.html

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsam01.html
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 03:11 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote dykers wrote: View Post
    Obviously Bargnani starts on our team. You seem to have missed the point. The question (at least as I responded to it) was one of comparing the "young core" of the Raptors to that of the Thunder. Bargnani, turning 25 and entering his 5th season, doesn't really figure within this comparison.
    +1
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    *This post has been deleted*
    Clearly not if you are the first to wonder where Bargs is in the starting line up... He's only our most versatile offensive player, a matchup nightmare, and probably one of our more solid man-on-man defenders... but no, let's throw Amir who has yet to show that he can play more than 16 minutes and Davis, who has not even played a single NBA game ahead of him...

    Green is much better than Amir, Westbrook smokes both our PGs combined, and Bargs is definitely starting ahead of Davis... He's also leaps and bounds better than any of the Thunder centres...

    To compare the Raptors starting five to the Thunder starting five is probably the most insulting thing OKC is gonna see this year. They're a top 3 team in the west and we are... a bottom 3 in the east? :\

    To be sure, we wouldn't be taking the Lakers to a tough game 6 in the playoffs last year. :P
    Last edited by James Ballswin (Realizar); Mon Aug 23rd, 2010 at 12:18 AM.

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    Quote dykers wrote: View Post
    Obviously Bargnani starts on our team. You seem to have missed the point. The question (at least as I responded to it) was one of comparing the "young core" of the Raptors to that of the Thunder. Bargnani, turning 25 and entering his 5th season, doesn't really figure within this comparison.
    -1...

    Bargnani is only 24 years old... he's young and is going to be the focal point of our offense (for better or worse)... so the fact that he isn't included in our "young core" is a tad silly. Especially since Jack is two years OLDER than Bargs and entering his SIXTH year in the league... Can we at least use the same measuring stick for all five positions?

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    When you compare their on court effectiveness Amir is definitely better than Green.
    Last time I checked, you actually have to be ON the court in order for "on court effectiveness" to be... well, effective. With that said, Minutes----------8,166--------3,291 and PF per 36 minutes---2.7---------6.5 jump out immediately..

    Let's also not forget that Amir racked up all those wonderful stats and personal fouls on bench players. Whereas Green got his playing legit starters. Apples and oranges.
    Last edited by Raptor Cowboy; Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 05:30 PM.

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    Listen guys...

    RIGHT NOW! Alex English (or whoever...don't care) is teaching Amir how to shoot. Right now guys, I'm not kidding.

    So obviously he is better than Jeff Green.

    I don't care if Green is the 2nd or 3rd banana on a top team in the western conference.

    Blatantly obvious things that you can see with your own eyes don't hold a candle to advanced stats.

    Don't believe the "lsm" guys.

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    PF - Johnson vs J. Green - Two young athletic guys who can run the court and defend. Green relies a lot on the three point shot for his offense. Johnson relies more on the pick and roll and post up game for his offense - Slight edge to the Johnson because he is a lot more efficient on offense
    This is just ridiculous. Green is scoring 15 points per game. How in the world can you give the edge to Johnson? Because he has proved... what? That he can foul? That he has no offensive game? Basically, he can't guard anybody consistently because of his fouls and his offense is based on putbacks, fastbreak dunks.

    If you don't even know the correct rotation of the thunder why do you compare those teams? Love your team, but please, stay realistic.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    Last time I checked, you actually have to be ON the court in order for "on court effectiveness" to be... well, effective. With that said, Minutes----------8,166--------3,291 and PF per 36 minutes---2.7---------6.5 jump out immediately..

    Let's also not forget that Amir racked up all those wonderful stats and personal fouls on bench players. Whereas Green got his playing legit starters. Apples and oranges.
    Not according to 82games.com

    Check their on court vs off court numbers

    The Raptors were +7.1 points per 100 possessions when he was on the court compared to when he was not.

    Raptors opponents shot 48.0% when he was on the court and 53.1% when he was not or 5.1% worse when he was on the court


    http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR9.HTM

    Now lets look at Green

    The Thunder were 9.3 points worse per 100 possessions when he was on the court than when he wasn't


    Thunder opponents shot substantially better when Green was on the court, 49.6% when he was on the court and only 44.1% when he was not.

    http://www.82games.com/0910/09OKC12.HTM

    When Johnson started last season he averaged 33 mpg and a + 8.4 per game, which actually works out to be a little better than his +7.1 for the entire season when he mostly came off of the bench


    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba

    Can Johnson maintain those kind of numbers starting for an entire season. I doubt it. However, there is no reason to suggest that if he can play 30 mpg that he will not be a lot more effective starter than Green.

    Besides, what good is to be on the court for 37 mpg if the team is worse when you are on the court then when you are off of it?

    Green's view by most hoops fans is the result of all the hype that ESPN gave him starting when he was Georgetown and his Olympic BS.
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    Quote dykers wrote: View Post
    While I can't stand Bargnani, to think that Cole Aldrich as a rookie will be better than Bargnani is completely moronic.
    Completely moronic? Aldrich is already a better shot blocker and rebounder and probably was 4 years ago when Bargnani was a rookie and Aldrich was a senior... in high school.

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    Quote black angus wrote: View Post
    Completely moronic? Aldrich is already a better shot blocker and rebounder and probably was 4 years ago when Bargnani was a rookie and Aldrich was a senior... in high school.
    The fact that Aldrich is a better rebounder doesn't make him a better player. Bargnani can spread the floor, can Aldrich? Bargnani will get double-teamed during a game, will Aldrich? Bargnani can shoot from the three and is a great elbow scorer, can Aldrich? And Bargnani is a pretty good shot-blocker (1.4 a game last year).

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