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Thread: In The Five Games That Amir Started in 09-10: Andrea 19.8 PPG & Amir 17.8 PPG

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Default In The Five Games That Amir Started in 09-10: Andrea 19.8 PPG & Amir 17.8 PPG

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...I.9SYsBmVTPaB4

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...xTuUkdnSw9PaB4

    Yes three of the games where against the Knicks and Pistons.

    However, the point is that if Amir starts and plays 30 mpg plus we will probably see much the same as we saw last season when Johnson started, Bargnani averaging only a couple more PPG than Johnson

    Of course if Jack starts then most likely the disparity will be larger in Bargnani's favor.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Aug 28th, 2010 at 08:00 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Last season Bosh scored 30 or more points in a game 15 times. The Raptors were 5 - 10 in those fifteen games

    The five wins were against

    Clippers-----29-53
    Wizards-----26-56
    Nets--------12-70
    Kings-------25-57
    Bobcats----44-38
    -----------------------
    Tota-------136-271 = .334

    So it appears that Bosh's big games weren't very effective at beating any of the really good teams.

    Interestingly enough the Raptors were 12 - 7 when Bosh scored between 25 - 29 points in a game.

    ===============
    The point of this thread and this post is I think that the Raptors may have more success in 10-11 if they spread their offense around and don't focus it on Bargnani
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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    Raptors Republic Rookie Mr.Grinch's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...I.9SYsBmVTPaB4

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...xTuUkdnSw9PaB4

    Yes three of the games where against the Knicks and Pistons.

    However, the point is that if Amir starts and plays 30 mpg plus we will probably see much the same as we saw last season when Johnson started, Bargnani averaging only a couple more PPG than Johnson

    Of course if Jack starts then most likely the disparity will be larger in Bargnani's favor.
    Why do you guys keep trying to find a way to compare amir to andrea? i can find milloins of stats that amir wont come close to bargs in? And these were just 5 games. Are you trying to prove that he`s better. Stop this bargs hate!!
    Last edited by Mr.Grinch; Sat Aug 28th, 2010 at 09:32 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Fon Riego's Avatar
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    That's not about stats, ppg's or whatever, Andrea is a far far far far better offensive player than Amir, and he'll always will be.

    I liked Amir's last season, a lot, but I'm beginning to hate the guy cause all this stuff. Buddah, man, back off...

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    I don't hate bargnani myself but I like the Amir style of play and it could complement bargnani and help him. The point buddahfan is trying to make is that making one guy the focus of the offense is not the best plan of attack for this team. Bosh was not good for bargs but as they play more together aj and ab could work out a good tandem.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Fon Riego's Avatar
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I don't hate bargnani myself but I like the Amir style of play and it could complement bargnani and help him. The point buddahfan is trying to make is that making one guy the focus of the offense is not the best plan of attack for this team. Bosh was not good for bargs but as they play more together aj and ab could work out a good tandem.
    Agree at all, and think too they will be a good tandem, and I LOVED the effort Amir brings. But that wasn't what Buddahfan was saying:
    'the point is that if Amir starts and plays 30 mpg plus we will probably see much the same as we saw last season when Johnson started, Bargnani averaging only a couple more PPG than Johnson'

    He's comparing Johnson's offense with Andrea's, and that makes no sense. Amir can contribute in a lot of ways, but if I need to give the ball to someone to get something when things get complicated, I know who'll I chose.

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    The numbers with Bosh are a little misleading. In a lot of the games he scored a lot, he did so because no one else was stepping up. In those games the Raptors lost not because Bosh scored a lot, but because no one else stepped up offensively. I remember Isiah Thomas had a similar record and he explained it by stating that if he is scoring a lot, the team's in trouble.

    As for Buddhafan supposedly bashing Bargnani, I think that oversensitivity. It was fairly obvious, especially bringing up Bosh's record, that the thread is not a slight at Bargnani. Some of you guys seem to feel that if you bring up Bargnani's name and it isn't to praise him, then it's bashing him. That's simply not true.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    What I worry about in this pairing is rebounding. Amir has the reb totals of an average SF.

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    Raptors Republic Starter cornbreadd's Avatar
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    I do like Bargs, but the thought of basing the offense around him, using him like we did Bosh is stupid. There are very few players in the league that you can give the ball to and let the create points, and Bargs is not one of them.

    Basically if Bargs can toss in 20ppg, with 3 or 4 others contributing 12-15ppg (Amir, Jack, Demar/Sonny) then I think that is the right spread of points.

    I do think that Bargs should be the 1st option simply because he has the most offensive talent on the team, but just because he is a first option doesn't mean he needs to be touching the ball every 2nd play

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    Raptors Republic Rookie pistol pete's Avatar
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    I'd be perfectly happy with 19,8 and 17,8 ppg from Andrea and Amir in 2010-2011. And Andrea and Amir too, I think.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The numbers with Bosh are a little misleading. In a lot of the games he scored a lot, he did so because no one else was stepping up. In those games the Raptors lost not because Bosh scored a lot, but because no one else stepped up offensively. I remember Isiah Thomas had a similar record and he explained it by stating that if he is scoring a lot, the team's in trouble.

    As for Buddhafan supposedly bashing Bargnani, I think that oversensitivity. It was fairly obvious, especially bringing up Bosh's record, that the thread is not a slight at Bargnani. Some of you guys seem to feel that if you bring up Bargnani's name and it isn't to praise him, then it's bashing him. That's simply not true.
    Tim sorry man but I disagree. I watched every single game last year and have been saying for years tht when the scoring gets spread around the team usually wins, and whenever Bosh scores alot they do not. When Bosh was putting up big numbers I remember too many times other guys who were scoring going cold because they would go5, 10, and 15 minutes or more without touching the ball. Bosh was pretty much a hog when he wanted to be and the point guards and everyone else pretty much gave him the ball when he wanted it. That is not the way your win games. Great players like Kobe demand the ball in crunch time not throughout the game. Crunch time and against very good teams just happened to be Bosh's worst times. Hence why he won when he scored 30 or more against nobody's.
    No question Bargs and Amir will share the ball more and I'm saying there is a decent chance they can develop into a better twosome than Bargs and Bosh.
    Let's hope the numbers we saw when Bargs and Amir play together continue. Also did anyone notice that DeMar and Weems also scored more when Bosh was out?? Like I said he was a hog, and the others will develop better and faster without him.

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    Quote Pizzaman wrote: View Post
    Tim sorry man but I disagree. I watched every single game last year and have been saying for years tht when the scoring gets spread around the team usually wins, and whenever Bosh scores alot they do not. When Bosh was putting up big numbers I remember too many times other guys who were scoring going cold because they would go5, 10, and 15 minutes or more without touching the ball. Bosh was pretty much a hog when he wanted to be and the point guards and everyone else pretty much gave him the ball when he wanted it. That is not the way your win games. Great players like Kobe demand the ball in crunch time not throughout the game. Crunch time and against very good teams just happened to be Bosh's worst times. Hence why he won when he scored 30 or more against nobody's.
    No question Bargs and Amir will share the ball more and I'm saying there is a decent chance they can develop into a better twosome than Bargs and Bosh.
    Let's hope the numbers we saw when Bargs and Amir play together continue. Also did anyone notice that DeMar and Weems also scored more when Bosh was out?? Like I said he was a hog, and the others will develop better and faster without him.
    That certainly happened sometimes, but the fact is that Bosh usually started dominating the ball when the offense began to go south. There were obviously a fair number of games when his ball dominating hurt the offense, but the fact of the matter is that more often than not, Bosh trying to take over was a necessity. The problem is that Bosh was simply not equipped to be able to do it like a Kobe Bryant or Dwayne Wade. The problem was that the Raptors didn't have a player like that. What they had was Bosh.

    As for your assertion that Bosh played badly in crunch times and against very good teams, well it's a myth. Bosh's crunch-time numbers were pretty good, and while he struggled against some of the top teams, he also excelled against other top teams. The belief that he always plays poorly against Boston and Kevin Garnett is not backed up by the fantastic numbers he put up against them this season. He also played very well against the Spurs, Magic, Jazz and Dallas. Against the Lakers he had fairly average games, which means All-Star numbers.

    Bosh was certainly not the perfect franchise player for the Raptors, but he was far better than many gave him credit for, and rewriting history doesn't do any good.

    And it's natural for other players to step up when the best player is out. When Kobe was out, Pau certainly scored more. When Roy was out, LaMarcus Aldridge's numbers increased. Next season, if Bargnani misses any games, it's a sure bet someone else will get more points. That's how it works.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    That certainly happened sometimes, but the fact is that Bosh usually started dominating the ball when the offense began to go south. There were obviously a fair number of games when his ball dominating hurt the offense, but the fact of the matter is that more often than not, Bosh trying to take over was a necessity.
    I disagree, and I apologize if this starts to sound like the "Chicken and the Egg" argument. Quite the contrary. When Bosh dominated the ball, the offence went south. It hurts to see four guys on the perimeter and one guy down low trying to do everything. I wouldn't call Bosh a hog like Tyreke Evans or Monta Ellis. However, the offensive sets ran through much of Bosh and it shows when he was out with injuries. It seems like the guys didn't know what's going on on the offensive side of the floor. I am happy the both Bosh and Hedo are gone. They simply "de-greased" ball movement on the offense. I like the AJ and AB tandem on offence. The team as a whole will thrive.

    More importantly, the Raps are now a team where any of the 8-10 guys can have really good nights on offence.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I disagree, and I apologize if this starts to sound like the "Chicken and the Egg" argument. Quite the contrary. When Bosh dominated the ball, the offence went south. It hurts to see four guys on the perimeter and one guy down low trying to do everything. I wouldn't call Bosh a hog like Tyreke Evans or Monta Ellis. However, the offensive sets ran through much of Bosh and it shows when he was out with injuries. It seems like the guys didn't know what's going on on the offensive side of the floor. I am happy the both Bosh and Hedo are gone. They simply "de-greased" ball movement on the offense. I like the AJ and AB tandem on offence. The team as a whole will thrive.

    More importantly, the Raps are now a team where any of the 8-10 guys can have really good nights on offence.
    ah, toronto raptor fans...where there ain't no history like revisionist history.

    the reality is, it's not an 'option' that the raps now have 8-10 guys who can have 'really good nights on offence' - it's practically a necessity.

    oh, and to those who continue to argue that andrea is a far superior offensive player to amir - if you're ONLY talking about basic skill set, then i'd tend to agree. but it's about more than just skill - it's about desire (a skill), and effort (a skill), and heart (a skill), and hustle (a skill). is banging the boards, going for loose balls, running the floor not skills? why is an offensive rebound & in-close put-back not more impressive than hitting an 18-footer? how can one who shoots at - at best - an average rate (and below average - all things considered - for his position) be considered truly 'better?' why is efficiency poo-poohed, while being an average 3-pt shooter is lauded? why is that skill more valuable?

    holy $%^&*
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