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Thread: Did The Raps Mess Up Barg's Development?

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    Default Did The Raps Mess Up Barg's Development?

    I was watching some videos from Bargnani's rookie season and summer league... I must say, back then, Bargnani was a lot more mobile, quick, spring in his step and had a higher vertical.

    I'm wondering... did the Raptors focus WAY TOO much on his deficiencies and not enough on his strengths? I feel like we kept insisting on developing him as a center with traditional post moves and that has hindered his growth and development.

    His rookie season, we all saw glimpses of his speed and athleticism--which drew comparisons to Dirk (fairly or unfairly). But now, the guy moves around like a younger Rasho.

    I've seen this happen in other sports, where coaches focus so much on the player's weaknesses, that his/her strengths no longer provide an advantage.

    Maybe we should have let Bargs play his game, and let him make the adjustments so that his style of game fit the NBA--rather than dictating what he should be doing and how he should be doing it.

    Coaches should be able to figure out a player's strengths and learn to utilize them--Mike D'Antoni did a great job of that in Phoenix. Fit the style of play to the personnel you have, rather than fit the players to a style.

    Just YouTube it for yourself: search for Bargnani rookie, and Bargnani summer league and you'll be amazed at the fact that you forgot how mobile and aggressive he used to be.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Wow.

    If you replaced Bargnani with Milicic then this reads like a "Did the Pistons mess-up Darko's development" thread.

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    It's called getting older. Bargs had quickness for a 7-footer but he was never a gazelle on the floor. Did the Raps hurt his development? I'd say Sam Mitchell did not help... Hence the hiring of Jay - a patient teacher whose familiarity of international players and play was completely welcomed by Colangelo. Mitchell was fired and Triano was hired as replacement because the first overall pick of the 06 draft cannot be in the coach's doghouse. As for his development, AB7 will hit his ceiling this season. From an offensive standpoint, this is where everyone expected him to be. From a bruising, gritty and basketball IQ standpoint that is required to be incredibly successful in the NBA, that is where AB's deficiencies lie. However, such shortcoming is not the result of the Raps coaching or support - it simply lies in the player. I'd like to think that Alex English, Sam Mitchell and Jay Triano would've had some impact on him by now. Perhaps this coming season we'll see it, or perhaps we never will.
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    It's called getting older. Bargs had quickness for a 7-footer but he was never a gazelle on the floor. Did the Raps hurt his development? I'd say Sam Mitchell did not help... Hence the hiring of Jay - a patient teacher whose familiarity of international players and play was completely welcomed by Colangelo. Mitchell was fired and Triano was hired as replacement because the first overall pick of the 06 draft cannot be in the coach's doghouse. As for his development, AB7 will hit his ceiling this season. From an offensive standpoint, this is where everyone expected him to be. From a bruising, gritty and basketball IQ standpoint that is required to be incredibly successful in the NBA, that is where AB's deficiencies lie. However, such shortcoming is not the result of the Raps coaching or support - it simply lies in the player. I'd like to think that Alex English, Sam Mitchell and Jay Triano would've had some impact on him by now. Perhaps this coming season we'll see it, or perhaps we never will.
    The history of Smitch has involved developing bigs. Both Bosh and Garnett owe quite a bit of their development to Smitch. The fact that Bargs deficencies come down to his lack of toughness & aggression and Bargs being in Smitch's doghouse -- also not coincidence!!! The worst thing for his development was letting Smitch go before he turned Bargs into an angry SOB. Everyone knew he had talent. But as soon as Smitch left he no longer had to fight to get playing time. That's why his growth has been stunted.

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    The history of Smitch has involved developing bigs. Both Bosh and Garnett owe quite a bit of their development to Smitch. The fact that Bargs deficencies come down to his lack of toughness & aggression and Bargs being in Smitch's doghouse -- also not coincidence!!! The worst thing for his development was letting Smitch go before he turned Bargs into an angry SOB. Everyone knew he had talent. But as soon as Smitch left he no longer had to fight to get playing time. That's why his growth has been stunted.
    +1. Smitch putting Bargs in his dog house till Bargs learnt how to rebound and box out would have done Bargs a lot of good, but "are you kidding me? You are benching my #1 draft pick" BC would have none of it. Bargs just gets to coast through games and gets his cool 30 minutes a night for being the GM's boy.lol.

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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    +1. Smitch putting Bargs in his dog house till Bargs learnt how to rebound and box out would have done Bargs a lot of good, but "are you kidding me? You are benching my #1 draft pick" BC would have none of it. Bargs just gets to coast through games and gets his cool 30 minutes a night for being the GM's boy.lol.
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.

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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    Exactly.

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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    That could be a very good point about JO's presence in Toronto

    Bargs did show noticeably improvement as last season rolled along in his man to man defense at the center position.

    However JO in Toronto probably had very little negative if no impact on the growth of Bargs poor team defense and rebounding. Though one could argue that team defense responsibilities at the center position are different than at the PF or SF position which they are.
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    That comment didn't make much sense to me either, but not having been around then I was hesitate to comment about it.
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    I remember the Mitchell years. 2 playoff appearances and a division title. A lot better than what I have seen since his departure.

    I don't view him as being the reason Bargnani's development has been 'messed up' in fact I don't think his development has been messed up at all. He is what he is and if he was more he would have or will show it. I agree Andrea didn't get consistent minutes after his rookie year under Mitchell, but thats primarily because he didn't earn them. I think it is silly just to give minutes to a player (like DeRozan last year) based on potential and where they were drafted. Andrea didn't have a consistent position not because of Mitchell but because they had a far better player playing the 4, and he was too slow to play and guard 3's (even though his perimeter game is suited for out there) so the 5 was the logical spot for him considering that he is an offensive mismatch for other centers and he has a better chance of staying in front of those type of bigger slower players.

    I agree that bringing in JO didn't help (to an extent) because if they thought Bargnani was the center of the future, why bring in a player that he couldn't beat out for that position? That being said BC brought in JO, not Mitchell. Mitchell just played the player that he thought gave the team a better chance to win. You should be blaming Colangelo for that. Andrea mentioned himself that JO helped him in that offseason, however if Bargnani was the 5 of the future that move might not have been wise by management.

    The 'dog house' mentality you are referring to is really called ACCOUNTABILITY. This current Raps coach and GM don't know the meaning of this word. Whatever was tried with J. Graham has no bearing upon anything cause J Graham is a marginal payer at best and the fact that he has been bouncing around the league for the last few years proves that. Mitchell didn't ruin him with being accountable, he tried to help him, and Graham has shown what type of player he is and the type of talent he has. Same goes for Andrea. How come the 'dog house' or tough love approach worked with Mitchell developing Bosh and Calderon?

    Too many Andrea excuses.lol He needs to be held accountable liek every other player for his play as the "no accountability" approach hasn't worked. His 'development' is affected by that more than anything.

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    The reason Bargnani was so effective his first season was that teams didn't know what he could do. He was a first-of-a-kind center and nobody quite knew how to handle him. The book got out on him the year after that and he flopped. What the Raptors didn't do is not work on his game during his first summer, I think they expected him to just show up in training camp and become better with age/experience. It didn't work, Bargnani took a step back because teams started to figure out how to play him, and he didn't do himself any favors by not improving his paint-game.

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    No I don't think so. I think Bargnani every year had different obstacles. In his first year he was a weak skinny center, but he could score quite abit because teams didn't quite know what to do against him, as he was probably the quickest center in the league. In the second year defenses started understanding how to defend against him, (actually towards the end of the other season) and so he struggles as he couldn't do much else. So if he just focused on being "athletic" he would NEVER be able to succeed in the NBA. If you want to be a only athletic player in the NBA you need to be beast athletic like Josh Smith, but he can rebound and defend... So Bargnani started gaining weight to become more of a true center to match up with them. And I think he is still quicker than most centers but now can also post up...

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    Silly premise, without making a statement as to what Bargs position is supposed to be, especially on defense. If he is supposed to play PF or C then he HAS TO rebound. Repeat he HAS TO rebound. And also provide interior help D. Both of which he sucks at. So from that standpoint, NO, we did not mess up his development. If the poster is suggested that Andrea is should have been developed as a wing player, i.e., SF, then we already know that doesn't work either, because he's not quick enough to guard opposing SFs, and his quickness advantage is nullified when he puts the ball on the floor. Also, he doesn't have enough post offense to consistently punish shorter SFs. So, did we mess up Barg's development? The answer is no, no and no.

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    Don't underestimate the power of a scouting report.

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    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.

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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.
    Well, first of all, you're dead wrong about Dirk. He's no Tim Duncan, but he's got a very good post game, is, at worst, an average rebounder (has an 8.5 rpg career average and average 9.9 rpg two years in a row), and is actually a half decent defender, especially team defense. As for your claim that he doesn't attack the basket, he's consistently among the leaders in free throws attempted, and has always gotten to the line at a very high rate, something Bargnani has never, ever done.

    As for the premise of this thread, I'm in awe of the number of excuses given to Bargnani. The guy has been given more chances than any player I've seen. Bargnani should be thankful he was drafted so high, because if he wasn't, his team certainly wouldn't have bent over backwards trying to figure out ways to make him useful. In fact, he may have been relegated to the bench long ago because of his lack of rebounding and defense, instead to be used as a situational role player.

    Bargnani is an offensively talented player who is very coordinated for his size. He's also very poor at creating his own shot, rebounding the ball and understanding basic team defense. The Raptors have done far more than should be necessary to help Bargnani's development. Far more than most teams probably would have.

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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.
    what game are you watching ? what research did you do to come to the conclusion that dirk is not a great rebounder ?

    the man has a career average (12 seasons) of 8.5 rebounds per game

    in 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 he averaged 9.9 rebounds per game.

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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.
    Ask the Dallas Mavericks how it has turned out playing "I don't play defense and rebound like a big, but I can score 42 points to make my team win" Dirk Nowitzki. How many championships? 0. I feel sad for Mark Cuban building around Dirk as he could have a won a ring with all those spending if he had a legit " I play defense and rebound" big.

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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.
    Dirk's career average for rebounds is 8.5- Bargnani's is 4.8.

    Dirk>>>>>>>>>>>>Barg's

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Silly premise, without making a statement as to what Bargs position is supposed to be, especially on defense. If he is supposed to play PF or C then he HAS TO rebound. Repeat he HAS TO rebound. And also provide interior help D. Both of which he sucks at. So from that standpoint, NO, we did not mess up his development. If the poster is suggested that Andrea is should have been developed as a wing player, i.e., SF, then we already know that doesn't work either, because he's not quick enough to guard opposing SFs, and his quickness advantage is nullified when he puts the ball on the floor. Also, he doesn't have enough post offense to consistently punish shorter SFs. So, did we mess up Barg's development? The answer is no, no and no.
    Your post is a bit incoherent. The very fact of moving Barg from PF, to C, to SF and back, for two years, has at least slowed down his development, if not messed up.

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