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Thread: Did The Raps Mess Up Barg's Development?

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    Default Did The Raps Mess Up Barg's Development?

    I was watching some videos from Bargnani's rookie season and summer league... I must say, back then, Bargnani was a lot more mobile, quick, spring in his step and had a higher vertical.

    I'm wondering... did the Raptors focus WAY TOO much on his deficiencies and not enough on his strengths? I feel like we kept insisting on developing him as a center with traditional post moves and that has hindered his growth and development.

    His rookie season, we all saw glimpses of his speed and athleticism--which drew comparisons to Dirk (fairly or unfairly). But now, the guy moves around like a younger Rasho.

    I've seen this happen in other sports, where coaches focus so much on the player's weaknesses, that his/her strengths no longer provide an advantage.

    Maybe we should have let Bargs play his game, and let him make the adjustments so that his style of game fit the NBA--rather than dictating what he should be doing and how he should be doing it.

    Coaches should be able to figure out a player's strengths and learn to utilize them--Mike D'Antoni did a great job of that in Phoenix. Fit the style of play to the personnel you have, rather than fit the players to a style.

    Just YouTube it for yourself: search for Bargnani rookie, and Bargnani summer league and you'll be amazed at the fact that you forgot how mobile and aggressive he used to be.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Wow.

    If you replaced Bargnani with Milicic then this reads like a "Did the Pistons mess-up Darko's development" thread.

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    It's called getting older. Bargs had quickness for a 7-footer but he was never a gazelle on the floor. Did the Raps hurt his development? I'd say Sam Mitchell did not help... Hence the hiring of Jay - a patient teacher whose familiarity of international players and play was completely welcomed by Colangelo. Mitchell was fired and Triano was hired as replacement because the first overall pick of the 06 draft cannot be in the coach's doghouse. As for his development, AB7 will hit his ceiling this season. From an offensive standpoint, this is where everyone expected him to be. From a bruising, gritty and basketball IQ standpoint that is required to be incredibly successful in the NBA, that is where AB's deficiencies lie. However, such shortcoming is not the result of the Raps coaching or support - it simply lies in the player. I'd like to think that Alex English, Sam Mitchell and Jay Triano would've had some impact on him by now. Perhaps this coming season we'll see it, or perhaps we never will.
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    The reason Bargnani was so effective his first season was that teams didn't know what he could do. He was a first-of-a-kind center and nobody quite knew how to handle him. The book got out on him the year after that and he flopped. What the Raptors didn't do is not work on his game during his first summer, I think they expected him to just show up in training camp and become better with age/experience. It didn't work, Bargnani took a step back because teams started to figure out how to play him, and he didn't do himself any favors by not improving his paint-game.

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    It's called getting older. Bargs had quickness for a 7-footer but he was never a gazelle on the floor. Did the Raps hurt his development? I'd say Sam Mitchell did not help... Hence the hiring of Jay - a patient teacher whose familiarity of international players and play was completely welcomed by Colangelo. Mitchell was fired and Triano was hired as replacement because the first overall pick of the 06 draft cannot be in the coach's doghouse. As for his development, AB7 will hit his ceiling this season. From an offensive standpoint, this is where everyone expected him to be. From a bruising, gritty and basketball IQ standpoint that is required to be incredibly successful in the NBA, that is where AB's deficiencies lie. However, such shortcoming is not the result of the Raps coaching or support - it simply lies in the player. I'd like to think that Alex English, Sam Mitchell and Jay Triano would've had some impact on him by now. Perhaps this coming season we'll see it, or perhaps we never will.
    The history of Smitch has involved developing bigs. Both Bosh and Garnett owe quite a bit of their development to Smitch. The fact that Bargs deficencies come down to his lack of toughness & aggression and Bargs being in Smitch's doghouse -- also not coincidence!!! The worst thing for his development was letting Smitch go before he turned Bargs into an angry SOB. Everyone knew he had talent. But as soon as Smitch left he no longer had to fight to get playing time. That's why his growth has been stunted.

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    No I don't think so. I think Bargnani every year had different obstacles. In his first year he was a weak skinny center, but he could score quite abit because teams didn't quite know what to do against him, as he was probably the quickest center in the league. In the second year defenses started understanding how to defend against him, (actually towards the end of the other season) and so he struggles as he couldn't do much else. So if he just focused on being "athletic" he would NEVER be able to succeed in the NBA. If you want to be a only athletic player in the NBA you need to be beast athletic like Josh Smith, but he can rebound and defend... So Bargnani started gaining weight to become more of a true center to match up with them. And I think he is still quicker than most centers but now can also post up...

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    Silly premise, without making a statement as to what Bargs position is supposed to be, especially on defense. If he is supposed to play PF or C then he HAS TO rebound. Repeat he HAS TO rebound. And also provide interior help D. Both of which he sucks at. So from that standpoint, NO, we did not mess up his development. If the poster is suggested that Andrea is should have been developed as a wing player, i.e., SF, then we already know that doesn't work either, because he's not quick enough to guard opposing SFs, and his quickness advantage is nullified when he puts the ball on the floor. Also, he doesn't have enough post offense to consistently punish shorter SFs. So, did we mess up Barg's development? The answer is no, no and no.

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    Don't underestimate the power of a scouting report.

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    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.

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    Yea I agree, you dont want another Radmanovic

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    It's very difficult to look at Bargs now and ask what if...? It's not tangible and pure theory. Yeah you can bring up Milicic and Radmanovic, but cmon. Have you heard those guys talk? They have the wrong attitude about the game and blame everything but themselves.

    I like the example of Dirk. Another example is Iverson. A couple of years trying to get him to play PG nearly gave coach Brown a mental breakdown. Move him to SG, let him play his game... he gets MVP, they go to the finals.

    The league has a history of players who excel at a few things and carve a niche for themselves... either offensively or defensively.

    Players with true talent will take their strengths, develop them, and make it work for them in the NBA. Yeah, there are scouting reports, but the starters of the league adapt. No matter what the scouting report says, Dirk will find a way to get his. Everyone in the league knows he's about the 3's and pull-up/fadeaway mid-range... does that stop him? No.

    To take an example from another sport--Tennis. Andy Roddick obviously does not have the all-around game of Nadal, Federer, or even Murray. Years ago, before Andy was able to crack the top 3, his coaches always focused on his weaknesses. Then one coach came along and said, you know what?... Let's use your biggest weapons--your serve and forehand. Let's develop those tools and use them to take you to the top. Shortly after, Andy breaks the top-3 in world rankings. He's fallen since then, not because he has gotten much worse, but because many players with better all-around games have surpassed him. But he is a great example of someone who takes what he has and runs with it. He is still one of the best players in the world.

    Bargs will never be a top-tier star in the league. He just doesn't have all the tools to be that player. Why couldn't we just let him run with the amazing gifts he had, and develop them to the peak of his ability? IF he can't adjust to the scouting reports after that, well then, he wasn't meant to be an elite player in the league.

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    Garnett grew slightly from 6-11 to ``6-11 and three-quarters,'' as Garnett puts it. The second-year star does not want to be listed at 7 feet, although he might already be there. ``Kevin thinks if he's a 7-footer, we're going to put him at center,'' Saunders said. ``I told him he doesn't have to worry about that.''- October 7th, 1996 St Paul Pioneer Press.

    His pre-draft measurement was 6'11" barefoot so the article seems legit when it says that he grew slightly to 6'11.75" and the same newspaper said he measured 7'1"(probably in sneakers) a year later. He was barely 19 when he was drafted, so growing slightly is not hard to believe


    What if the T-wolves insisted that Garnett bulk-up and stay down low like a traditional center?

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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.
    Well, first of all, you're dead wrong about Dirk. He's no Tim Duncan, but he's got a very good post game, is, at worst, an average rebounder (has an 8.5 rpg career average and average 9.9 rpg two years in a row), and is actually a half decent defender, especially team defense. As for your claim that he doesn't attack the basket, he's consistently among the leaders in free throws attempted, and has always gotten to the line at a very high rate, something Bargnani has never, ever done.

    As for the premise of this thread, I'm in awe of the number of excuses given to Bargnani. The guy has been given more chances than any player I've seen. Bargnani should be thankful he was drafted so high, because if he wasn't, his team certainly wouldn't have bent over backwards trying to figure out ways to make him useful. In fact, he may have been relegated to the bench long ago because of his lack of rebounding and defense, instead to be used as a situational role player.

    Bargnani is an offensively talented player who is very coordinated for his size. He's also very poor at creating his own shot, rebounding the ball and understanding basic team defense. The Raptors have done far more than should be necessary to help Bargnani's development. Far more than most teams probably would have.

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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    Garnett grew slightly from 6-11 to ``6-11 and three-quarters,'' as Garnett puts it. The second-year star does not want to be listed at 7 feet, although he might already be there. ``Kevin thinks if he's a 7-footer, we're going to put him at center,'' Saunders said. ``I told him he doesn't have to worry about that.''- October 7th, 1996 St Paul Pioneer Press.

    His pre-draft measurement was 6'11" barefoot so the article seems legit when it says that he grew slightly to 6'11.75" and the same newspaper said he measured 7'1"(probably in sneakers) a year later. He was barely 19 when he was drafted, so growing slightly is not hard to believe


    What if the T-wolves insisted that Garnett bulk-up and stay down low like a traditional center?
    You have to be kidding with that question. Right

    Flip Saunders coached KG for the first ten seasons that KG was in the NBA.

    No way Saunders would be that stupid.

    The question is not even worthy of a hypothetical given who KGs coach was.
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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    Garnett grew slightly from 6-11 to ``6-11 and three-quarters,'' as Garnett puts it. The second-year star does not want to be listed at 7 feet, although he might already be there. ``Kevin thinks if he's a 7-footer, we're going to put him at center,'' Saunders said. ``I told him he doesn't have to worry about that.''- October 7th, 1996 St Paul Pioneer Press.

    His pre-draft measurement was 6'11" barefoot so the article seems legit when it says that he grew slightly to 6'11.75" and the same newspaper said he measured 7'1"(probably in sneakers) a year later. He was barely 19 when he was drafted, so growing slightly is not hard to believe


    What if the T-wolves insisted that Garnett bulk-up and stay down low like a traditional center?
    Garnett is well over 7 feet, and the problem is not the position that Garnett didn't want to play, but the mindset. Players saw the center position as a limiting position, which is incredibly ironic considering that the power forward position used to simply be bangers who had little offense but just did the dirty work. Garnett doesn't fit to the mould of a traditional power forward just as he wouldn't fit the mould of a traditional center. The big problem with moving Garnett to center was that it took away his strengths on defense. He's never been a great post defender and excels at getting out and guarding guys outside. Garnett's biggest strength is team defense. Bargnani's biggest strength on defense is post defense and his biggest weakness is team defense.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Garnett is well over 7 feet, and the problem is not the position that Garnett didn't want to play, but the mindset. Players saw the center position as a limiting position, which is incredibly ironic considering that the power forward position used to simply be bangers who had little offense but just did the dirty work. Garnett doesn't fit to the mould of a traditional power forward just as he wouldn't fit the mould of a traditional center. The big problem with moving Garnett to center was that it took away his strengths on defense. He's never been a great post defender and excels at getting out and guarding guys outside. Garnett's biggest strength is team defense. Bargnani's biggest strength on defense is post defense and his biggest weakness is team defense.
    Interestingly enough KG never played next to a true center until he had been in league seven seasons

    Here is the list of big players who played with KG by year while at MN

    Tom Gugliotta - F
    Tom Gugliotta - F
    Cherokee Parks - C/F
    Joe Smith - F
    Joe Smith - F
    LePhonso Ellis - F
    Rosho - C
    Rosho - C
    Mark Madsen - F
    Wally Szczerbiak - F and Michael Olowokandi - C
    Mark Blount C and Michael Olowokandi - C
    Mark Blount C

    So in the 12 season that KG was with MN he played

    6 years with a PF
    5 years with a C
    1 year with a C/F

    It wasn't until his game was already developed that he started to play next to Centers.
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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.
    what game are you watching ? what research did you do to come to the conclusion that dirk is not a great rebounder ?

    the man has a career average (12 seasons) of 8.5 rebounds per game

    in 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 he averaged 9.9 rebounds per game.

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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    Garnett grew slightly from 6-11 to ``6-11 and three-quarters,'' as Garnett puts it. The second-year star does not want to be listed at 7 feet, although he might already be there. ``Kevin thinks if he's a 7-footer, we're going to put him at center,'' Saunders said. ``I told him he doesn't have to worry about that.''- October 7th, 1996 St Paul Pioneer Press.

    His pre-draft measurement was 6'11" barefoot so the article seems legit when it says that he grew slightly to 6'11.75" and the same newspaper said he measured 7'1"(probably in sneakers) a year later. He was barely 19 when he was drafted, so growing slightly is not hard to believe


    What if the T-wolves insisted that Garnett bulk-up and stay down low like a traditional center?
    I remember he was being interviewed I think at the All Star Game and a reporter from TV said he's 7 feet and he actually corrected her and said 6'11

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    Quote Killingjoke wrote: View Post
    I remember he was being interviewed I think at the All Star Game and a reporter from TV said he's 7 feet and he actually corrected her and said 6'11
    A lot of the 7 footers who are maybe 7'1" at the most say they are 6'11". For some reason which I heard a NBA analyst mention but can't remember who it was or what the reason was, a lot of these guys don't want to be identified as 7 feet tall.

    Maybe there is some kind of social stigma that goes with it.

    Many men are 6 feet something so that is pretty common. Even if you are 6'11" you are still six feet something.

    However, when you are 7 feet you are 7 feet which kind of makes you a freak in society.

    So maybe that is the reason that a lot of the guys who can get away with it say they are only 6'11" Sheed who is over 7 feet says that he is 6'11"

    However, when you get to be like Kareem who is as I recall a few inches north of 7 feet you really can't get away with telling people that you are only 6'11". The lie becomes to obvious and no basketball person who stands near you will buy it.
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    The history of Smitch has involved developing bigs. Both Bosh and Garnett owe quite a bit of their development to Smitch. The fact that Bargs deficencies come down to his lack of toughness & aggression and Bargs being in Smitch's doghouse -- also not coincidence!!! The worst thing for his development was letting Smitch go before he turned Bargs into an angry SOB. Everyone knew he had talent. But as soon as Smitch left he no longer had to fight to get playing time. That's why his growth has been stunted.
    +1. Smitch putting Bargs in his dog house till Bargs learnt how to rebound and box out would have done Bargs a lot of good, but "are you kidding me? You are benching my #1 draft pick" BC would have none of it. Bargs just gets to coast through games and gets his cool 30 minutes a night for being the GM's boy.lol.

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