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Did The Raps Mess Up Barg's Development?

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  • #31
    The Raptors have tried to work on Bargnani's rebounding and defense with him but obviously success has not been reached yet. I think half the battle is getting him to put forth the consistent tough nosed effort that's required from people of lesser athleticism. Dennis Rodman was not a top tier athlete but he was the hardest working guy on the court always and defeated his opponents with his ball IQ. Imagine, hustle and intelligence created the best rebounder of the past 20 years. I don't think Bargnani lacks intelligence and at times he shows effort but somebody needs to figure out how to lock that switch on when the lights come on. Somebody needs to put him in front of a screen and make him watch game film of the best rebounders in the league. They need to make him watch game film on the highest volume shooters on the teams he plays the most and get him to recognize where they usually miss when they miss. If he has faster anticipation than his opponent and the desire to beat him to the ball, he will beat him to the ball.

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    • #32
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      The Raptors have tried to work on Bargnani's rebounding and defense with him but obviously success has not been reached yet. I think half the battle is getting him to put forth the consistent tough nosed effort that's required from people of lesser athleticism. Dennis Rodman was not a top tier athlete but he was the hardest working guy on the court always and defeated his opponents with his ball IQ. Imagine, hustle and intelligence created the best rebounder of the past 20 years. I don't think Bargnani lacks intelligence and at times he shows effort but somebody needs to figure out how to lock that switch on when the lights come on. Somebody needs to put him in front of a screen and make him watch game film of the best rebounders in the league. They need to make him watch game film on the highest volume shooters on the teams he plays the most and get him to recognize where they usually miss when they miss. If he has faster anticipation than his opponent and the desire to beat him to the ball, he will beat him to the ball.

      Seriously; With all due respect my friend if you don't think being able to play as hard as he could for as long as he could doesn't take special athleticism you might want to check your understanding of athleticism. On top of that he used to guard all five positions on the court, not at once of course.

      You comment about Rodman is revisionist history, straight up.

      The Pistons press in Detroit always talked about the immense amount of time he spent in the weight room. He was an athletic freak. #stop
      Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Aug 31, 2010, 01:19 PM.
      Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

      Memories some so sweet, indeed

      Larger Photo of the avatar



      “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
      Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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      • #33
        Bargnani should try the "badass" persona. Helped Rodman. I can't wait to see Bargs with pirecings and blue hair :P Then, he will become a 20 rebound a game machine

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        • #34
          Buddahfan wrote: View Post
          Seriously; With all due respect my friend if you don't think being able to play as hard as he could for as long as he could doesn't take special athleticism you might want to check your understanding of athleticism. On top of that he used to guard all five positions on the court, not at once of course.

          You comment about Rodman is revisionist history, straight up.

          The Pistons press in Detroit always talked about the immense amount of time he spent in the weight room. He was an athletic freak. #stop
          Being able to play hard for long periods of time has more to do with physical conditioning and not athleticism. I know a bunch of people who are not athletic but could probably run laps around you and I in a marathon and in doing so there would be know show of blistering speed, a huge vertical, etc. At the same time I know guys who lift weights hardcore who are slow and can't jump to save their life. If you consider brute strength or stamina as key aspect of athleticism then do you think former Raptor Hoffa is a super athlete?

          Rodman was tough, strong and smart and there are many of writers who agree with my stance that his performance on the court had everything in the world to do with what was between his two ears and not how high he could jump or how fast he could run.

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          • #35
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            Being able to play hard for long periods of time has more to do with physical conditioning and not athleticism.
            Walk into a room of marathon runners and tell them that.

            Let us know what happens next

            You definitely have a hole in ur screen door on this one, my friend

            athleticism
            1. an active interest in sports.
            2. an obsessive participation in physical activity. — athletic, adj.

            http://www.thefreedictionary.com/athleticism

            When you ride a stationary bike for at least two hour after each game like Rodman did regardless of the amount of minutes that he played, I would call that activity "obsessive participation in physical activity"
            Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Aug 31, 2010, 03:57 PM.
            Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

            Memories some so sweet, indeed

            Larger Photo of the avatar



            “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
            Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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            • #36
              Marz wrote: View Post
              You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
              I remember the Mitchell years. 2 playoff appearances and a division title. A lot better than what I have seen since his departure.

              I don't view him as being the reason Bargnani's development has been 'messed up' in fact I don't think his development has been messed up at all. He is what he is and if he was more he would have or will show it. I agree Andrea didn't get consistent minutes after his rookie year under Mitchell, but thats primarily because he didn't earn them. I think it is silly just to give minutes to a player (like DeRozan last year) based on potential and where they were drafted. Andrea didn't have a consistent position not because of Mitchell but because they had a far better player playing the 4, and he was too slow to play and guard 3's (even though his perimeter game is suited for out there) so the 5 was the logical spot for him considering that he is an offensive mismatch for other centers and he has a better chance of staying in front of those type of bigger slower players.

              I agree that bringing in JO didn't help (to an extent) because if they thought Bargnani was the center of the future, why bring in a player that he couldn't beat out for that position? That being said BC brought in JO, not Mitchell. Mitchell just played the player that he thought gave the team a better chance to win. You should be blaming Colangelo for that. Andrea mentioned himself that JO helped him in that offseason, however if Bargnani was the 5 of the future that move might not have been wise by management.

              The 'dog house' mentality you are referring to is really called ACCOUNTABILITY. This current Raps coach and GM don't know the meaning of this word. Whatever was tried with J. Graham has no bearing upon anything cause J Graham is a marginal payer at best and the fact that he has been bouncing around the league for the last few years proves that. Mitchell didn't ruin him with being accountable, he tried to help him, and Graham has shown what type of player he is and the type of talent he has. Same goes for Andrea. How come the 'dog house' or tough love approach worked with Mitchell developing Bosh and Calderon?

              Too many Andrea excuses.lol He needs to be held accountable liek every other player for his play as the "no accountability" approach hasn't worked. His 'development' is affected by that more than anything.

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              • #37
                Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                You have to be kidding with that question. Right

                Flip Saunders coached KG for the first ten seasons that KG was in the NBA.

                No way Saunders would be that stupid.

                The question is not even worthy of a hypothetical given who KGs coach was.

                Just sayin' that KG wouldn't have been the same player if they forced him to go that route.

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                • #38
                  NoFrillz wrote: View Post
                  Just sayin' that KG wouldn't have been the same player if they forced him to go that route.
                  No way KG would have done that. Both Saunders and Kevin wouldn't have allowed it.

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                  • #39
                    NoFrillz wrote: View Post
                    Just sayin' that KG wouldn't have been the same player if they forced him to go that route.
                    Maybe he would have been better. WHo knows. One of the biggest complaints abut Garnett throughout his career has been his inability to be a goto scorer, something that might be different if they had forced him into the post.

                    Then again, no one seems to be forcing Bargnani to do ANYTHING different. Or more precisely, Bargnani has not done anything that wasn't his strength. They haven't forced him to be a back to basket player, a banger, or anything that he wasn't coming into the league.

                    I'm not quite sure what the Raptors could have done differently. It's not as if they hid him on the bench, or asked him to do things he wasn't capable of or that hurt his development. He averaged more minutes in his second second than Amir Johnson got last season, despite shooting under 40% and being a liability on the defensive end. For those who think Sam Mitchell unfairly benched him, Bargnani was basically given the starting center position in his second season, but couldn't keep it due to poor play. He was given several chances throughout the season to get it back but never took advantage. That falls squarely on him.

                    Perhaps it wasn't the Raptors who hindered his development, but his parents for coddling him too much as a boy, or maybe the school system that never challenged him. Or maybe it's Italian society that's to blame, bringing up a generation of mamma's boys who don't know how to take care of themselves.

                    I'm sure there are lots of people who you could claim are responsible for the lack of development of Bargnani, but in the end it's Bargnani who is ultimately responsible for his career.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                    • #40
                      I agree Tim, Andrea is accountable for his own performance. Many here dump on him as a failure but I view him almost where he should be. He was never drafted to be the best player in the 2006 draft in his first 2-4 years of his career. The expectations was that he would be the best player out of the draft in year 5. THis year is when you can call him at. Time will tell but I think he will become a 20-8-2 guy with the potential to be a 25-28 point scorer at full potential.

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                      • #41
                        Tim W said:

                        ""Perhaps it wasn't the Raptors who hindered his development, but his parents for coddling him too much as a boy, or maybe the school system that never challenged him. Or maybe it's Italian society that's to blame, bringing up a generation of mamma's boys who don't know how to take care of themselves. ""

                        Where do you get this stuff Tim? "Italian society for bringing up a generation of mammas boys who don't know how to take care of themselves""

                        WTF do you know about Italian society, or how the mamma's raise the boys, or whether they can look after themselves?

                        Are you suggesting the only way for any player to ever be good in the NBA is to grow up without a father, and most times raised by a grandmother since your parents were crackheads? Sure those kids learn to grow up fast if that's what you call it but I would rather have a talented player that respects himself, his family, his fans,hi teamates, and his management, who does not complain, does not get mouthy ( Wright).

                        Again it is not Barg's fault he was chosen #1, and he was a development project from day one since he had never played NBA basketball, or American college ball. He has progressed every year even though he has had horrible coaching and mentoring. He will continue to improve and play very well alongside Amir, Davis and Kleiza, all while keeping his mouth shut and doing his job.

                        I like a player who isn't always bragging about himself, and showboating. Something wrong with a mature 24 year old kid who's still trying to improve his game?

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                        • #42
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          ...Then again, no one seems to be forcing Bargnani to do ANYTHING different. Or more precisely, Bargnani has not done anything that wasn't his strength. They haven't forced him to be a back to basket player, a banger, or anything that he wasn't coming into the league.

                          I'm not quite sure what the Raptors could have done differently. It's not as if they hid him on the bench, or asked him to do things he wasn't capable of or that hurt his development. He averaged more minutes in his second second than Amir Johnson got last season, despite shooting under 40% and being a liability on the defensive end. For those who think Sam Mitchell unfairly benched him, Bargnani was basically given the starting center position in his second season, but couldn't keep it due to poor play. He was given several chances throughout the season to get it back but never took advantage. That falls squarely on him.

                          Perhaps it wasn't the Raptors who hindered his development, but his parents for coddling him too much as a boy, or maybe the school system that never challenged him. Or maybe it's Italian society that's to blame, bringing up a generation of mamma's boys who don't know how to take care of themselves.

                          I'm sure there are lots of people who you could claim are responsible for the lack of development of Bargnani, but in the end it's Bargnani who is ultimately responsible for his career.
                          Um, what? Firstly if you had not realized Bargnani changed his ENTIRE basketball style. He entered the league as a 7 footer with good shot and quick feet and decent ball handling skills. And I want to remind you that he weighed 220 lb and barely EVER entered the paint (unless for a layup or occasional dunk). He averaged 11 points, most of them outside the paint. And 4 rebounds with barely any offensive boards and he didn't even average 1 block.

                          Then 2 years ago, he came back after the summer having put 30 lb of muscle. And from the first few games we could already see a change in him. He actually looked more fierce under the basket, and attacked it. He still wasn't confident but he went up against other big men, and actually post up on many occasions. He was no longer the lanky italian on the three point line. He improved EVERYTHING. He became more reliable shooter, more reliable inside. And actually defended against other big men. He blocked many shots and played good post defence. He improved his abilities to face double teams and I think improved EVERY facet of his game. And his rebounding went up to 6 and a half. And over one offensive board (which isn't good, but still improvement, and I don't care about your 48 stats or anything, he averaged 2 boards more than his career average.)
                          About not taking his chances? You don't remember the months where he averaged 20 points and 6/7 boards? Which he averaged for half of the season.

                          And what's with your comment about Italian society? Seriously wtf. You grow up differently here, and who are you to criticize the way kids are brought up in Italy? How do you know all kids are "mamma's boys" how do you know that we aren't thought to take care of ourselves. What a load of bullshit. I don't even need to reply to that, and if you want me to I will but it won't be a very pleasant post.

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                          • #43
                            Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                            Tim W said:

                            ""Perhaps it wasn't the Raptors who hindered his development, but his parents for coddling him too much as a boy, or maybe the school system that never challenged him. Or maybe it's Italian society that's to blame, bringing up a generation of mamma's boys who don't know how to take care of themselves. ""

                            Where do you get this stuff Tim? "Italian society for bringing up a generation of mammas boys who don't know how to take care of themselves""

                            WTF do you know about Italian society, or how the mamma's raise the boys, or whether they can look after themselves?

                            Are you suggesting the only way for any player to ever be good in the NBA is to grow up without a father, and most times raised by a grandmother since your parents were crackheads? Sure those kids learn to grow up fast if that's what you call it but I would rather have a talented player that respects himself, his family, his fans,hi teamates, and his management, who does not complain, does not get mouthy ( Wright).

                            Again it is not Barg's fault he was chosen #1, and he was a development project from day one since he had never played NBA basketball, or American college ball. He has progressed every year even though he has had horrible coaching and mentoring. He will continue to improve and play very well alongside Amir, Davis and Kleiza, all while keeping his mouth shut and doing his job.

                            I like a player who isn't always bragging about himself, and showboating. Something wrong with a mature 24 year old kid who's still trying to improve his game?
                            Uh, I was using sarcasm to make a point. Apparently you didn't catch that. I'll try to be even more obvious next time.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #44
                              Pizzaman wrote: View Post
                              Tim W said:

                              Or maybe it's Italian society that's to blame, bringing up a generation of mamma's boys who don't know how to take care of themselves. ""
                              Mama Mia! Un cacasenno
                              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                              Memories some so sweet, indeed

                              Larger Photo of the avatar



                              “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                JoePanini wrote: View Post
                                Um, what? Firstly if you had not realized Bargnani changed his ENTIRE basketball style. He entered the league as a 7 footer with good shot and quick feet and decent ball handling skills. And I want to remind you that he weighed 220 lb and barely EVER entered the paint (unless for a layup or occasional dunk). He averaged 11 points, most of them outside the paint. And 4 rebounds with barely any offensive boards and he didn't even average 1 block.

                                Then 2 years ago, he came back after the summer having put 30 lb of muscle. And from the first few games we could already see a change in him. He actually looked more fierce under the basket, and attacked it. He still wasn't confident but he went up against other big men, and actually post up on many occasions. He was no longer the lanky italian on the three point line. He improved EVERYTHING. He became more reliable shooter, more reliable inside. And actually defended against other big men. He blocked many shots and played good post defence. He improved his abilities to face double teams and I think improved EVERY facet of his game. And his rebounding went up to 6 and a half. And over one offensive board (which isn't good, but still improvement, and I don't care about your 48 stats or anything, he averaged 2 boards more than his career average.)
                                About not taking his chances? You don't remember the months where he averaged 20 points and 6/7 boards? Which he averaged for half of the season.

                                And what's with your comment about Italian society? Seriously wtf. You grow up differently here, and who are you to criticize the way kids are brought up in Italy? How do you know all kids are "mamma's boys" how do you know that we aren't thought to take care of ourselves. What a load of bullshit. I don't even need to reply to that, and if you want me to I will but it won't be a very pleasant post.
                                Okay, first of all, as I stated above the comment about blaming Italy was OBVIOUSLY sarcastic. I was trying to use a stereotype in order to make a point. If you read the whole post, I think it's pretty obvious I wasn't blaming anyone for Bargnani's lack of development. How do you know that? Because I actually said so.

                                As for Bargnani, he's gone from a 7 footer who mostly shoots outside to a 7 footer who mostly shoots outside. He really hasn't changed his game that much. Certainly no more than any other player who entered the NBA. You look at any reasonably skilled player and they've certainly made at least the same amount of changes in their game. Players are actually expected to add to their game every year.

                                And your comment about Bargnani only averaging 4 rpg and less than a block a game in his first season don't make sense. Look at his per 36 mpg stats. He only averaged 3.9 rpg and 0.8 bpg because he only played 25 mpg. His rebounds and blocks per minute barely have gone up in 4 years. Per 36 minutes, his rpg have gone up 0.7 over four years and his blocks have gone up 0.2. These are not massive improvements, here. Even his scoring has only gone up 1.1 ppg in four years, per 36 minutes. Bosh's rpg went up 2.0 in his first 4 years. And his scoring went from 12.3 to 21.1 over 36 mpg. I know you say you don't care about per minute stats, but you're the one who brought up his improvement in stats, so I just wanted to point out that his statistical improvement has been negligible.

                                He has improved facets of his game. There's no denying this. It's a natural thing for players to do. Amir Johnson actually has some semblance of a jumpshot, now and is better on offense. DeRozan appears as though he's worked on his jumpshot as well. Players are expected to improve their game as time goes on. No one has said Bargnani hasn't improved several facets of his game, which is one main reason he's not playing 25 mpg, anymore.

                                As for Bargnani averaging "20 points and 6/7 boards? Which he averaged for half of the season. ", that's not exactly true. For two months in the 2008-2009 season he average close to 20 ppg and 6 rpg (not 7), which is not close to half of the 6 months the NBA plays during the regular season. And this past season he had a couple of months when he average 19 and 6. Since he average 17 and 6 for the entire season, I don't see how this is such a revelation.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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