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Thread: Did The Raps Mess Up Barg's Development?

  1. #21
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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.
    Ask the Dallas Mavericks how it has turned out playing "I don't play defense and rebound like a big, but I can score 42 points to make my team win" Dirk Nowitzki. How many championships? 0. I feel sad for Mark Cuban building around Dirk as he could have a won a ring with all those spending if he had a legit " I play defense and rebound" big.

  2. #22
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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    It's very difficult to look at Bargs now and ask what if...? It's not tangible and pure theory. Yeah you can bring up Milicic and Radmanovic, but cmon. Have you heard those guys talk? They have the wrong attitude about the game and blame everything but themselves.

    I like the example of Dirk. Another example is Iverson. A couple of years trying to get him to play PG nearly gave coach Brown a mental breakdown. Move him to SG, let him play his game... he gets MVP, they go to the finals.

    The league has a history of players who excel at a few things and carve a niche for themselves... either offensively or defensively.

    Players with true talent will take their strengths, develop them, and make it work for them in the NBA. Yeah, there are scouting reports, but the starters of the league adapt. No matter what the scouting report says, Dirk will find a way to get his. Everyone in the league knows he's about the 3's and pull-up/fadeaway mid-range... does that stop him? No.

    To take an example from another sport--Tennis. Andy Roddick obviously does not have the all-around game of Nadal, Federer, or even Murray. Years ago, before Andy was able to crack the top 3, his coaches always focused on his weaknesses. Then one coach came along and said, you know what?... Let's use your biggest weapons--your serve and forehand. Let's develop those tools and use them to take you to the top. Shortly after, Andy breaks the top-3 in world rankings. He's fallen since then, not because he has gotten much worse, but because many players with better all-around games have surpassed him. But he is a great example of someone who takes what he has and runs with it. He is still one of the best players in the world.

    Bargs will never be a top-tier star in the league. He just doesn't have all the tools to be that player. Why couldn't we just let him run with the amazing gifts he had, and develop them to the peak of his ability? IF he can't adjust to the scouting reports after that, well then, he wasn't meant to be an elite player in the league.
    If Bargs could develop the skills he has as the first big of the bench with a decent contract, I will be okay with that. Non-defensive bigs a la Bargs are not starters on winning teams. 'Nuff said.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    If Bargs could develop the skills he has as the first big of the bench with a decent contract, I will be okay with that. Non-defensive bigs a la Bargs are not starters on winning teams. 'Nuff said.
    Depending on how Davis and Johnson play together Bargnani may not have time to develop coming off the bench skills before he gets to actually use them.
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    Quote Raptor Cowboy wrote: View Post
    I think there is some merit to this thread.

    If you look at Dirk, he still has no post game, cannot attack the basket, plays terrible defense, and is not a great rebounder. But he's also won an MVP and led his team deep into the post season.

    He did this because he was allowed to play to his strengths. First of all, he was allowed to play his natural position. He was paired with bigs who could make up for his deficiencies. He was allowed to jack up 3s and mid-range jumpers all day. Again matched with other players (Josh Howard, Jason Terry) who could break down defenses off the bounce.

    Of course, having a hall of fame PG helps, but I definitely see where Bargs got the short end of the stick in many of these respects.

    Bargs has a fantastic 3, has much better handles/passing than dirk, and is great mid range. Maybe the OP was right. Maybe the Rpators should just let him do those things.
    Dirk's career average for rebounds is 8.5- Bargnani's is 4.8.

    Dirk>>>>>>>>>>>>Barg's

  5. #25
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Silly premise, without making a statement as to what Bargs position is supposed to be, especially on defense. If he is supposed to play PF or C then he HAS TO rebound. Repeat he HAS TO rebound. And also provide interior help D. Both of which he sucks at. So from that standpoint, NO, we did not mess up his development. If the poster is suggested that Andrea is should have been developed as a wing player, i.e., SF, then we already know that doesn't work either, because he's not quick enough to guard opposing SFs, and his quickness advantage is nullified when he puts the ball on the floor. Also, he doesn't have enough post offense to consistently punish shorter SFs. So, did we mess up Barg's development? The answer is no, no and no.
    Your post is a bit incoherent. The very fact of moving Barg from PF, to C, to SF and back, for two years, has at least slowed down his development, if not messed up.

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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    +1. Smitch putting Bargs in his dog house till Bargs learnt how to rebound and box out would have done Bargs a lot of good, but "are you kidding me? You are benching my #1 draft pick" BC would have none of it. Bargs just gets to coast through games and gets his cool 30 minutes a night for being the GM's boy.lol.
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.

  7. #27
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    Exactly.

  8. #28
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    That could be a very good point about JO's presence in Toronto

    Bargs did show noticeably improvement as last season rolled along in his man to man defense at the center position.

    However JO in Toronto probably had very little negative if no impact on the growth of Bargs poor team defense and rebounding. Though one could argue that team defense responsibilities at the center position are different than at the PF or SF position which they are.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    That comment didn't make much sense to me either, but not having been around then I was hesitate to comment about it.
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  10. #30
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    Quote pistol pete wrote: View Post
    Your post is a bit incoherent. The very fact of moving Barg from PF, to C, to SF and back, for two years, has at least slowed down his development, if not messed up.
    Bargnani only moved to SF (for a short period) when he failed to secure the center position after a poor second season. He only played that position while Jermaine was a Raptor. Besides, moving between the positions certainly didn't seem to hinder Dirk's development. He played all three positions early in his career. Bosh played out of position, at center, quite a bit early in his career. Three and a half of his four years in the league he has played at center, which is the position he plays best at.

    Again, these are all excuses that take the responsibility away from Bargnani. A good player will excel when given minutes. Bargnani has been given plenty of minutes during his career. There's simply no excuse why he has not taken advantage of those minutes. Countless players have excelled under much worse circumstances.

  11. #31
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    The Raptors have tried to work on Bargnani's rebounding and defense with him but obviously success has not been reached yet. I think half the battle is getting him to put forth the consistent tough nosed effort that's required from people of lesser athleticism. Dennis Rodman was not a top tier athlete but he was the hardest working guy on the court always and defeated his opponents with his ball IQ. Imagine, hustle and intelligence created the best rebounder of the past 20 years. I don't think Bargnani lacks intelligence and at times he shows effort but somebody needs to figure out how to lock that switch on when the lights come on. Somebody needs to put him in front of a screen and make him watch game film of the best rebounders in the league. They need to make him watch game film on the highest volume shooters on the teams he plays the most and get him to recognize where they usually miss when they miss. If he has faster anticipation than his opponent and the desire to beat him to the ball, he will beat him to the ball.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The Raptors have tried to work on Bargnani's rebounding and defense with him but obviously success has not been reached yet. I think half the battle is getting him to put forth the consistent tough nosed effort that's required from people of lesser athleticism. Dennis Rodman was not a top tier athlete but he was the hardest working guy on the court always and defeated his opponents with his ball IQ. Imagine, hustle and intelligence created the best rebounder of the past 20 years. I don't think Bargnani lacks intelligence and at times he shows effort but somebody needs to figure out how to lock that switch on when the lights come on. Somebody needs to put him in front of a screen and make him watch game film of the best rebounders in the league. They need to make him watch game film on the highest volume shooters on the teams he plays the most and get him to recognize where they usually miss when they miss. If he has faster anticipation than his opponent and the desire to beat him to the ball, he will beat him to the ball.

    Seriously; With all due respect my friend if you don't think being able to play as hard as he could for as long as he could doesn't take special athleticism you might want to check your understanding of athleticism. On top of that he used to guard all five positions on the court, not at once of course.

    You comment about Rodman is revisionist history, straight up.

    The Pistons press in Detroit always talked about the immense amount of time he spent in the weight room. He was an athletic freak. #stop
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Aug 31st, 2010 at 01:19 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Bargnani should try the "badass" persona. Helped Rodman. I can't wait to see Bargs with pirecings and blue hair :P Then, he will become a 20 rebound a game machine

  14. #34
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Seriously; With all due respect my friend if you don't think being able to play as hard as he could for as long as he could doesn't take special athleticism you might want to check your understanding of athleticism. On top of that he used to guard all five positions on the court, not at once of course.

    You comment about Rodman is revisionist history, straight up.

    The Pistons press in Detroit always talked about the immense amount of time he spent in the weight room. He was an athletic freak. #stop
    Being able to play hard for long periods of time has more to do with physical conditioning and not athleticism. I know a bunch of people who are not athletic but could probably run laps around you and I in a marathon and in doing so there would be know show of blistering speed, a huge vertical, etc. At the same time I know guys who lift weights hardcore who are slow and can't jump to save their life. If you consider brute strength or stamina as key aspect of athleticism then do you think former Raptor Hoffa is a super athlete?

    Rodman was tough, strong and smart and there are many of writers who agree with my stance that his performance on the court had everything in the world to do with what was between his two ears and not how high he could jump or how fast he could run.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Being able to play hard for long periods of time has more to do with physical conditioning and not athleticism.
    Walk into a room of marathon runners and tell them that.

    Let us know what happens next

    You definitely have a hole in ur screen door on this one, my friend

    athleticism
    1. an active interest in sports.
    2. an obsessive participation in physical activity. — athletic, adj.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/athleticism

    When you ride a stationary bike for at least two hour after each game like Rodman did regardless of the amount of minutes that he played, I would call that activity "obsessive participation in physical activity"
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Aug 31st, 2010 at 03:57 PM.
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

  16. #36
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You're shitting me right? Does no one remember the Mitchell years? He's the biggest reason the "Raps messed up Bargs' development". Dude didn't give him consistent minutes or even a consistent position. Colangelo bringing in Jermaine O'Neal also didn't help. And this "dog house until they learn" philosophy was already tried with Joey Graham and failed miserabley.
    I remember the Mitchell years. 2 playoff appearances and a division title. A lot better than what I have seen since his departure.

    I don't view him as being the reason Bargnani's development has been 'messed up' in fact I don't think his development has been messed up at all. He is what he is and if he was more he would have or will show it. I agree Andrea didn't get consistent minutes after his rookie year under Mitchell, but thats primarily because he didn't earn them. I think it is silly just to give minutes to a player (like DeRozan last year) based on potential and where they were drafted. Andrea didn't have a consistent position not because of Mitchell but because they had a far better player playing the 4, and he was too slow to play and guard 3's (even though his perimeter game is suited for out there) so the 5 was the logical spot for him considering that he is an offensive mismatch for other centers and he has a better chance of staying in front of those type of bigger slower players.

    I agree that bringing in JO didn't help (to an extent) because if they thought Bargnani was the center of the future, why bring in a player that he couldn't beat out for that position? That being said BC brought in JO, not Mitchell. Mitchell just played the player that he thought gave the team a better chance to win. You should be blaming Colangelo for that. Andrea mentioned himself that JO helped him in that offseason, however if Bargnani was the 5 of the future that move might not have been wise by management.

    The 'dog house' mentality you are referring to is really called ACCOUNTABILITY. This current Raps coach and GM don't know the meaning of this word. Whatever was tried with J. Graham has no bearing upon anything cause J Graham is a marginal payer at best and the fact that he has been bouncing around the league for the last few years proves that. Mitchell didn't ruin him with being accountable, he tried to help him, and Graham has shown what type of player he is and the type of talent he has. Same goes for Andrea. How come the 'dog house' or tough love approach worked with Mitchell developing Bosh and Calderon?

    Too many Andrea excuses.lol He needs to be held accountable liek every other player for his play as the "no accountability" approach hasn't worked. His 'development' is affected by that more than anything.

  17. #37
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You have to be kidding with that question. Right

    Flip Saunders coached KG for the first ten seasons that KG was in the NBA.

    No way Saunders would be that stupid.

    The question is not even worthy of a hypothetical given who KGs coach was.

    Just sayin' that KG wouldn't have been the same player if they forced him to go that route.

  18. #38
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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    Just sayin' that KG wouldn't have been the same player if they forced him to go that route.
    No way KG would have done that. Both Saunders and Kevin wouldn't have allowed it.

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    Quote NoFrillz wrote: View Post
    Just sayin' that KG wouldn't have been the same player if they forced him to go that route.
    Maybe he would have been better. WHo knows. One of the biggest complaints abut Garnett throughout his career has been his inability to be a goto scorer, something that might be different if they had forced him into the post.

    Then again, no one seems to be forcing Bargnani to do ANYTHING different. Or more precisely, Bargnani has not done anything that wasn't his strength. They haven't forced him to be a back to basket player, a banger, or anything that he wasn't coming into the league.

    I'm not quite sure what the Raptors could have done differently. It's not as if they hid him on the bench, or asked him to do things he wasn't capable of or that hurt his development. He averaged more minutes in his second second than Amir Johnson got last season, despite shooting under 40% and being a liability on the defensive end. For those who think Sam Mitchell unfairly benched him, Bargnani was basically given the starting center position in his second season, but couldn't keep it due to poor play. He was given several chances throughout the season to get it back but never took advantage. That falls squarely on him.

    Perhaps it wasn't the Raptors who hindered his development, but his parents for coddling him too much as a boy, or maybe the school system that never challenged him. Or maybe it's Italian society that's to blame, bringing up a generation of mamma's boys who don't know how to take care of themselves.

    I'm sure there are lots of people who you could claim are responsible for the lack of development of Bargnani, but in the end it's Bargnani who is ultimately responsible for his career.

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    I agree Tim, Andrea is accountable for his own performance. Many here dump on him as a failure but I view him almost where he should be. He was never drafted to be the best player in the 2006 draft in his first 2-4 years of his career. The expectations was that he would be the best player out of the draft in year 5. THis year is when you can call him at. Time will tell but I think he will become a 20-8-2 guy with the potential to be a 25-28 point scorer at full potential.

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