View Poll Results: Is Calderon a top 20 PG?

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Thread: Is Jose Calderon A Top 20 PG?

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  1. #1
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    Default Is Jose Calderon A Top 20 PG?

    This comes out of the Bargnani being a top 10 center thread. When some fans explained that Bargnani is a top ten center because he could end up being the highest scoring center. I argued that by that logic, Calderon might be a top ten PG, but he IS one of the most efficient PGs on the offensive end. He has consistently finished in the top ten each years in assists per minute and is usually in the top 3 for assist/TO. He shoots a high percentage from the field, including beyond the three point line and from the free throw line. And he's one of the better PGs in the league at running an offense and making his teammates better.

    That got me thinking. Obviously Calderon is not a top ten PG, but is he a top 20 one?

    In no particular order...

    Chris Paul
    Deron Williams
    Steve Nash
    Tony Parker
    Jason Kidd
    Rajon Rondo
    Russell Westbrook
    Andre Miller
    Brandon Jennings
    Chauncey Billups
    Derrick Rose
    John Wall

    I don't think anyone is going to argue that Calderon is better than any of those players. That's 12.

    A case can be made that Jameer Nelson, Devon Harris, Darren Collison and Stephen Curry are better, and for the sake of argument, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

    That's 16.

    I think Calderon falls here. His defense is obviously poor, but it looks far worse on the Raptors than it would on a better defensive team. Calderon's defensive problems have gotten worse as the teams defense has gotten worse. I don't think that's a coincidence.

    On offense, he's not going to break many defenders down off the dribble, but he's a very smart passer who runs an offense efficiently and rarely turns the ball over, and incredibly underrated skill among NBA fans.

    As for the other starting PGs or possible starting PGs) around the league...
    Jrue Holiday- A great athlete who defends well, but has yet to learn how to run an offense.
    Raymond Felton- Doesn't do anything really well and considering Charlotte wanted Calderon instead of him, that should tell you something.
    Mo Williams- Great spot up shooter, but can't run an offense and looked good only next to LeBron, and even then...
    Jonny Flynn- He might end up being a good PG, but not yet.
    DJ Augustin- See above
    Ramon Sessions- Minnesota gave him away for cap room a year after signing him.
    Rodney Stuckey- Is great at driving to the basket, but does little else.
    Mike Bibby- At his age, Calderon does everything he does, but better.
    Mario Chalmers- Great defender. Did I say he was a great defender?
    Steve Blake- A solid backup who doesn't do anything really well, but doesn't do anything poorly.
    Aaron Brooks- He's really nice, unless you want your PG to do something other than score.
    Baron Davis- When he's not injured, and when he cares, and when he's not overweight...what was I saying?
    Beno Udrih- Do I really need to say anything?
    Mike Conley- See above.

    Some may say that Calderon isn't even the best PG on the team, but the fact is that the team played better when Calderon was on the floor than when Jack was running the team. Jack is a great backup PG, but he isn't great at running an offense and doesn't make those around him better.

    So, is Calderon a top 20 PG? I think he is.

  2. #2
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    I think he definitely is, you can't go from being considered a top 10 PG to not a top 20 PG in the space of a year. He is a great PG, he's just had his issues. I still remember when I went to the ACC for the first time, we were all chanting MVP at him so yeah. He is a great passer has great vision, his offence is pretty good. His defence is shit though. He can shoot pretty decently... He's definitely better than all the players you listed after him. Flynn sucks, he's a top 50 PG maybe, he'll never be great. Or even good. He scored alright, got a couple of assists. But if you watch him, it almost hurts.

  3. #3
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    i'd have jrue holiday in your fringe group based on his second half of last season. he was also the best player in either summer league, i think.

    at this point i'd have all the dudes in your fringe group ahead of jason kidd, as well, and probably put calderon right after kidd. kidd can still run an offense, is still one of the best rebounding guards, and (ironically) long distance shooting has become one of his greatest strengths in the twilight of his career, but at this point his defense is almost as much of a liability as calderon's.

    apart from that i can't argue with anything you've said

  4. #4
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i'd have jrue holiday in your fringe group based on his second half of last season. he was also the best player in either summer league, i think.

    at this point i'd have all the dudes in your fringe group ahead of jason kidd, as well, and probably put calderon right after kidd. kidd can still run an offense, is still one of the best rebounding guards, and (ironically) long distance shooting has become one of his greatest strengths in the twilight of his career, but at this point his defense is almost as much of a liability as calderon's.

    apart from that i can't argue with anything you've said
    Ya, Kidd probably belongs in the fringe group, but he's probably still second behind Nash at making his teammates better, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

    I don't know about Holiday. I'm still not sold on him, yet.

    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    also steph curry is going to be awesome. i have no idea why one would hesitate to put him in that first group
    I think at this point, Curry is behind Calderon, but this year it could definitely change. Curry is a fantastic shooter and a smart player, but doesn't quite know how to run an offense, yet. I do think he's going to be an All-Star calibre player in a year or two, though.

  5. #5
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Ya, Kidd probably belongs in the fringe group, but he's probably still second behind Nash at making his teammates better, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

    I don't know about Holiday. I'm still not sold on him, yet.



    I think at this point, Curry is behind Calderon, but this year it could definitely change. Curry is a fantastic shooter and a smart player, but doesn't quite know how to run an offense, yet. I do think he's going to be an All-Star calibre player in a year or two, though.
    i got curry ahead of calderon right now. everyone raves about his shooting, with good reason, but he's really an excellent passer and has a pretty insane handle, too. and intelligent, as you said. he will be fantastic.

    i will admit though that i'm having trouble in this thread distinguishing between how good a player is now and how good i think he is going to be

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i got curry ahead of calderon right now. everyone raves about his shooting, with good reason, but he's really an excellent passer and has a pretty insane handle, too. and intelligent, as you said. he will be fantastic.

    i will admit though that i'm having trouble in this thread distinguishing between how good a player is now and how good i think he is going to be
    Ya, with the young guys, it's hard to place them since someone like Curry could make a big leap this season. WHile he's a good passer right now, there's a difference between being a good passer and being able to run an offense. That he's still learning.

  7. #7
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i'd have jrue holiday in your fringe group based on his second half of last season. he was also the best player in either summer league, i think.

    at this point i'd have all the dudes in your fringe group ahead of jason kidd, as well, and probably put calderon right after kidd. kidd can still run an offense, is still one of the best rebounding guards, and (ironically) long distance shooting has become one of his greatest strengths in the twilight of his career, but at this point his defense is almost as much of a liability as calderon's.

    apart from that i can't argue with anything you've said
    I don't see how Kidd's defense is as much of a liability as Calderon's, when Kidd's DWS was 4 last year and Calderon's was 0.

    J.Kidd: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../kiddja01.html)
    J.Calderon: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...caldejo01.html)

  8. #8
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    Quote f=ma wrote: View Post
    I don't see how Kidd's defense is as much of a liability as Calderon's, when Kidd's DWS was 4 last year and Calderon's was 0.

    J.Kidd: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../kiddja01.html)
    J.Calderon: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...caldejo01.html)
    well first of all, i might have been exaggerating just a tad. nobody's worse than calderon. but can you explain to me what a defensive win share is and how it is calculated, off the top of your head?

    advanced stats are great and all but people need to stop referring to them as the final word on a players worth. just looking at the top 20 in DWS last year i can see that it's a flawed statistic, and overvalues players playing in good defensive systems (ie. carlos boozer is one of the best defensive players in the league, and michael beasley is 8 spots ahead of ron artest, and 11 ahead of joakim noah. lol).

    looking at just the mavs, dirk is apparently their best defender (along with kidd) while brendan haywood is amongst the worst. now, having actually watched basketball games that the mavericks have played, i know that dirk is not a better defender than brendan haywood. neither is drew gooden.

    example from our team: antoine right. DWS of 0.2, right near the bottom and far below bargs. antoine right started on that dallas team, and i'd wager it wasn't because he was a scoring machine. did he forget how or just completely lose the ability to defend people? i'm going with no, he just played on a team that was historically bad defensively.

    it's like the other day when someone was saying in the comments section that isiah thomas was far from the best player on those piston title teams cuz rick mahorn had a better WS per 48 or something. i'm sorry dude but that's retarded. here are the all-time career leaders in WS/48:
    1. chad gallagher
    2. tyson wheeler
    3. dave scholz
    4. ian lockhart
    5. steven hill

    heard of those guys? me neither. michael jordan is 19th, btw.

    anyhow the point of this rambling post is just to say that jason kidd could not stop my grandmother from getting by him at this stage in his career. i know this because i watch basketball games, and not because of a metric i don't even understand on basketball-reference.com told me so.
    Last edited by chris; Sat Sep 4th, 2010 at 09:14 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    I think he definitely is, you can't go from being considered a top 10 PG to not a top 20 PG in the space of a year. He is a great PG, he's just had his issues. I still remember when I went to the ACC for the first time, we were all chanting MVP at him so yeah. He is a great passer has great vision, his offence is pretty good. His defence is shit though. He can shoot pretty decently... He's definitely better than all the players you listed after him. Flynn sucks, he's a top 50 PG maybe, he'll never be great. Or even good. He scored alright, got a couple of assists. But if you watch him, it almost hurts.
    He was never considered a top 10 pg. At best, he's number 20 but probably 2 or 3 notches below that...

  10. #10
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    also steph curry is going to be awesome. i have no idea why one would hesitate to put him in that first group

  11. #11
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    Calderon

    APG--------------------11
    Assists per 36 min--------8
    TOV%------------------10
    Off Rating---------------4
    WS/48------------------13
    Def Rating---------------28

    Answer
    ---------------
    Offense somewhere around 10th give or take

    Defense - Between 25 and 30

    Overall I would put him between 15 and 20

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    hes a top 20 pg in the league, but a debateable top 20. im sure this year will go a long way in deciding whether he is or not

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    calderon is going to look bad this year again because of his defense and the lack of a go-to scorer on offence. If he had a kobe or a lebron, he'd be top 10 because he is a facilitator and would find the open man who went to double.

    point guards and coaches are hard to value because they are most dependent on others to do well.

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    Quote aintno4s wrote: View Post
    calderon is going to look bad this year again because of his defense and the lack of a go-to scorer on offence. If he had a kobe or a lebron, he'd be top 10 because he is a facilitator and would find the open man who went to double.

    point guards and coaches are hard to value because they are most dependent on others to do well.
    Bosh scored a lot lower percentage of his field goals last season via an assist than did Bargnani and Johnson.

    It seems to me with "Ball" and Bosh gone that Jose's assists per 36 minutes will go up in 10-11 from 09-10
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  15. #15
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    No he is not...
    When you factor in his defence he is not in the top 20.

    Jose would rank somewhere between 24-38ish

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    D collison
    A brooks
    S curry
    T evans
    R stuckey
    G arenas
    B davis
    D Harris
    J holiday
    J nelson


    the league is full of great pgs... and ur list plus these people are more than 20
    so to answer ur question no hes not top 20.

  17. #17
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    Quote Raptors wrote: View Post
    D collison
    A brooks
    S curry
    T evans
    R stuckey
    G arenas
    B davis
    D Harris
    J holiday
    J nelson


    the league is full of great pgs... and ur list plus these people are more than 20
    so to answer ur question no hes not top 20.
    Evans isn't a PG. And there's no way Stuckey is better than Calderon. Not in a million years. Baron Davis had really only 3 good seasons and that's what people seem to remember. He might be worse defensively than Calderon, and Calderon is far better at running an offense. No way I'd put Davis above him.

    The rest are debatable, but even if get the rest, that gives Calderon the 20th slot.

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    There are 30 teams in the leauge and 30 starting point guards and Jose I'd say is better than your average backup pg so there is no question that he's a top 20. He can score and distribute with a star player but his defense is lacking. He's a top 20 but I don't think it's fair to already put John Wall ahead of him when he is yet to play a minute of NBA basketball.

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    @Tim: Even though I dislike parts of his game you can't forget about Derek Fisher. Having said that, Jose Calderon is definitely a top 20 PG. I don't know if it's just me but he'll do better this year if he's at least 90% healthy

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    Quote jk1m wrote: View Post
    @Tim: Even though I dislike parts of his game you can't forget about Derek Fisher. Having said that, Jose Calderon is definitely a top 20 PG. I don't know if it's just me but he'll do better this year if he's at least 90% healthy
    Ya, I thought about Fisher, but left him off because I think Steve Blake will start. Fisher certainly was a very good PG, but I think this year will see him play a much smaller role during the regular season.

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