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Is Jose Calderon A Top 20 PG?

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  • #31
    jjiio wrote: View Post
    Threads like this one make me sick. Gilbert Arenas isn't better? Why? Because he hasn't played last season?

    Brooks and Mo Williams worse than Jose? I really laughed about that one. Making an All-Star Team and playing strong next to LeBron is worse than getting embarrased nearly every posession at the defensive end? There are PGs who score and there are PGs who shoot. Just because they don't have to carry the ball all the time doensn't make them worse than Calderon. Did you see the playoffs? I liked what i saw from Jennings and Nelson.

    I love the way Jose plays but please stop overachieving every Raptor.
    What makes me sick is overrating a PG simply because he can score, even if he can't do what a PG is SUPPOSED to do, and that's run an offense. Mo Williams made the All-Star team simply because he played next to LeBron on a Cleveland team that won a lot of games. Stick Calderon in there, instead, and I'm pretty sure he'd look better than Williams. He's at least on par as a shooter, plus he's a much better passer.

    I actually rated Jennings over Calderon, and gave Nelson the benefit of the doubt. But your comment about watching in the playoffs made me chuckle. Lots of players overperform in the playoffs. Need I point to Jason Kapono, who killed in the playoffs the first season with Toronto. He never came close to that before or since.
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    • #32
      I just added some of these stats in the "Is Bargnani a top 10 Center" thread so I thought I should add some here as well. Again, I don't know how to weight this stat in terms of relevance, but it is a stat none the less. According to Basketball Reference Jose Calderon's "Win Share" stat is 4.2, placing him 25th among last year's point guards (Jack was 20th).

      His Offensive Win Share was 4.2 (placing him 9th, and Jack was 8th)
      His Defensive Win Share was 0!!! (174th among guards, didn't even want to figure out where that is among point guards)... the highest guard for the Raptors was Weems at 0.5, so no Raptor guards were in the top 100 in this stat.

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      • #33
        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        What makes me sick is overrating a PG simply because he can score, even if he can't do what a PG is SUPPOSED to do, and that's run an offense. Mo Williams made the All-Star team simply because he played next to LeBron on a Cleveland team that won a lot of games. Stick Calderon in there, instead, and I'm pretty sure he'd look better than Williams. He's at least on par as a shooter, plus he's a much better passer.

        I actually rated Jennings over Calderon, and gave Nelson the benefit of the doubt. But your comment about watching in the playoffs made me chuckle. Lots of players overperform in the playoffs. Need I point to Jason Kapono, who killed in the playoffs the first season with Toronto. He never came close to that before or since.
        I simply disagree. Not every PG is supposed to run the offense. Why would you let your PG run the offense if you have LeBron or Wade? What also seperates Brooks or Williams from Calderon is, that they can play some defense. On the offensive end, Calderon might be in the top-20 because of his intelligence but you also have to mention the defense and thats were Jose is lost. Scoring guards create space and opputunities for teammates with there ability to score and guards like Jose or Kidd do it with their passing. That's the way i see it. Of course Jose doesn't get the credt he deserves for his play but rating him better than the players i've mentioned after the last season isn't logical to me.

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        • #34
          no way hes top 20, maybe a few seasons ago he would have been considered top 15 maybe. but his defense is terrible, which brings him down heavily. in terms of assists, free throw percentage, 3 pt shooting, assist/turnover ratio hes probably top 10 in all of those catagories. but hes defense is just tooo bad.
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          • #35
            chris wrote: View Post
            i'd have jrue holiday in your fringe group based on his second half of last season. he was also the best player in either summer league, i think.

            at this point i'd have all the dudes in your fringe group ahead of jason kidd, as well, and probably put calderon right after kidd. kidd can still run an offense, is still one of the best rebounding guards, and (ironically) long distance shooting has become one of his greatest strengths in the twilight of his career, but at this point his defense is almost as much of a liability as calderon's.

            apart from that i can't argue with anything you've said
            I don't see how Kidd's defense is as much of a liability as Calderon's, when Kidd's DWS was 4 last year and Calderon's was 0.

            J.Kidd: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../kiddja01.html)
            J.Calderon: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...caldejo01.html)

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            • #36
              jjiio wrote: View Post
              I simply disagree. Not every PG is supposed to run the offense. Why would you let your PG run the offense if you have LeBron or Wade? What also seperates Brooks or Williams from Calderon is, that they can play some defense. On the offensive end, Calderon might be in the top-20 because of his intelligence but you also have to mention the defense and thats were Jose is lost. Scoring guards create space and opputunities for teammates with there ability to score and guards like Jose or Kidd do it with their passing. That's the way i see it. Of course Jose doesn't get the credt he deserves for his play but rating him better than the players i've mentioned after the last season isn't logical to me.
              There's a difference between a PG having to run and offense, and being able to. If a PG doesn't know how to run an offense, he's simply not really a PG. He's a short SG. Those guys work on on certain strict situations where someone else can run the offense. On Cleveland, next to LeBron, Mo Williams worked. Now that he's gone, I'm betting he's not going to look nearly as good.
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              • #37
                Within the right system and without injuries he would be in the top 15. With his health curriculum and with the way he (and his mates) has been coached, possibly out of the 20.

                Too bad, he's a great guy, he's got balls and he is a very loyal person (something as rare today as a game of Amir without a foul or a turnover)
                ka mate, ka ora, whiti te rā!!, hī!

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                • #38
                  f=ma wrote: View Post
                  I don't see how Kidd's defense is as much of a liability as Calderon's, when Kidd's DWS was 4 last year and Calderon's was 0.

                  J.Kidd: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../kiddja01.html)
                  J.Calderon: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...caldejo01.html)
                  well first of all, i might have been exaggerating just a tad. nobody's worse than calderon. but can you explain to me what a defensive win share is and how it is calculated, off the top of your head?

                  advanced stats are great and all but people need to stop referring to them as the final word on a players worth. just looking at the top 20 in DWS last year i can see that it's a flawed statistic, and overvalues players playing in good defensive systems (ie. carlos boozer is one of the best defensive players in the league, and michael beasley is 8 spots ahead of ron artest, and 11 ahead of joakim noah. lol).

                  looking at just the mavs, dirk is apparently their best defender (along with kidd) while brendan haywood is amongst the worst. now, having actually watched basketball games that the mavericks have played, i know that dirk is not a better defender than brendan haywood. neither is drew gooden.

                  example from our team: antoine right. DWS of 0.2, right near the bottom and far below bargs. antoine right started on that dallas team, and i'd wager it wasn't because he was a scoring machine. did he forget how or just completely lose the ability to defend people? i'm going with no, he just played on a team that was historically bad defensively.

                  it's like the other day when someone was saying in the comments section that isiah thomas was far from the best player on those piston title teams cuz rick mahorn had a better WS per 48 or something. i'm sorry dude but that's retarded. here are the all-time career leaders in WS/48:
                  1. chad gallagher
                  2. tyson wheeler
                  3. dave scholz
                  4. ian lockhart
                  5. steven hill

                  heard of those guys? me neither. michael jordan is 19th, btw.

                  anyhow the point of this rambling post is just to say that jason kidd could not stop my grandmother from getting by him at this stage in his career. i know this because i watch basketball games, and not because of a metric i don't even understand on basketball-reference.com told me so.
                  Last edited by chris; Sat Sep 4, 2010, 09:14 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    Ya, Kidd probably belongs in the fringe group, but he's probably still second behind Nash at making his teammates better, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

                    I don't know about Holiday. I'm still not sold on him, yet.



                    I think at this point, Curry is behind Calderon, but this year it could definitely change. Curry is a fantastic shooter and a smart player, but doesn't quite know how to run an offense, yet. I do think he's going to be an All-Star calibre player in a year or two, though.
                    i got curry ahead of calderon right now. everyone raves about his shooting, with good reason, but he's really an excellent passer and has a pretty insane handle, too. and intelligent, as you said. he will be fantastic.

                    i will admit though that i'm having trouble in this thread distinguishing between how good a player is now and how good i think he is going to be

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                    • #40
                      Fon Riego wrote: View Post
                      Noooooo way. I'd agree that when Jose starts, his performance is worse than when he came out of the bench, but even then he's a better player than Jack. I like Jack, but people use to think he's a great defender, and he's just a little better than Jose. When it comes to run an offense, there is no posible comparison. Ask Weems or Johnson, I'm pretty sure they prefer Jose running the offense for them than Jack.
                      With all his faults included Jose is still a way better PG than Jack. Jack is a hustle guy who can have great stretches, but is not very good at making his teamates better. Jack plays defense better than Jose, but everything else is Jose.
                      Jose is a way better passer, shooter and ball handler, with superior IQ and court vision. His biggest issue has been injuries and poor defense and especially a system that has the players switching constantly even when they can break through screens.
                      Jack should be a bench guard.

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                      • #41
                        chris wrote: View Post
                        i got curry ahead of calderon right now. everyone raves about his shooting, with good reason, but he's really an excellent passer and has a pretty insane handle, too. and intelligent, as you said. he will be fantastic.

                        i will admit though that i'm having trouble in this thread distinguishing between how good a player is now and how good i think he is going to be
                        Ya, with the young guys, it's hard to place them since someone like Curry could make a big leap this season. WHile he's a good passer right now, there's a difference between being a good passer and being able to run an offense. That he's still learning.
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                        • #42
                          If Jack is the Raptor's projected starting pg how can Jose be a top 20 pg? Even the most delusional Raptor fan should be able to make that connection. Plus, Jose leadership skills are null and void ie walking by CB as he lay on the ground after PPierce kneed him in the groin, Jose lost all respect right then from the returning 2010-11 roster players- truss.

                          Jose aka The Spanish X Ray is too brittle to stand up to the 82 game rigors of the NBA- he has only played in 82 games once in his career, as he has shown especially over the last 2 seasons in which he played in only 68 games each season. Not to mention he's coming into the 2010-11 season battling a FIBA related basketball injury- it's Calderon's hamstring once again- a sign of being out of shape.

                          I don't know what type of spell BC has casted but Calderon is a back up NBA pg to a back up NBA pg in Jack (ideally Jack would be a quality back up in the NBA).

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                          • #43
                            calderon used to be a top tier PG. after that long injury his game was never the same. he continues to get worse ...

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                            • #44
                              SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
                              If Jack is the Raptor's projected starting pg how can Jose be a top 20 pg? Even the most delusional Raptor fan should be able to make that connection. Plus, Jose leadership skills are null and void ie walking by CB as he lay on the ground after PPierce kneed him in the groin, Jose lost all respect right then from the returning 2010-11 roster players- truss.

                              Jose aka The Spanish X Ray is too brittle to stand up to the 82 game rigors of the NBA- he has only played in 82 games once in his career, as he has shown especially over the last 2 seasons in which he played in only 68 games each season. Not to mention he's coming into the 2010-11 season battling a FIBA related basketball injury- it's Calderon's hamstring once again- a sign of being out of shape.

                              I don't know what type of spell BC has casted but Calderon is a back up NBA pg to a back up NBA pg in Jack (ideally Jack would be a quality back up in the NBA).

                              No shit genius! Why do you think BC has been trying to trade his ass all summer???

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                              • #45
                                RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
                                No shit genius! Why do you think BC has been trying to trade his ass all summer???
                                Trying and doing are two different realities. Last time I checked Jose was still an overpaid Raptor......recovery from another injury.

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