View Poll Results: Is Calderon a top 20 PG?

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    17 58.62%
  • No

    12 41.38%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 45

Thread: Is Jose Calderon A Top 20 PG?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    543
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    This comes out of the Bargnani being a top 10 center thread. When some fans explained that Bargnani is a top ten center because he could end up being the highest scoring center. I argued that by that logic, Calderon might be a top ten PG, but he IS one of the most efficient PGs on the offensive end. He has consistently finished in the top ten each years in assists per minute and is usually in the top 3 for assist/TO. He shoots a high percentage from the field, including beyond the three point line and from the free throw line. And he's one of the better PGs in the league at running an offense and making his teammates better.

    That got me thinking. Obviously Calderon is not a top ten PG, but is he a top 20 one?

    In no particular order...

    Chris Paul
    Deron Williams
    Steve Nash
    Tony Parker
    Jason Kidd
    Rajon Rondo
    Russell Westbrook
    Andre Miller
    Brandon Jennings
    Chauncey Billups
    Derrick Rose
    John Wall

    I don't think anyone is going to argue that Calderon is better than any of those players. That's 12.

    A case can be made that Jameer Nelson, Devon Harris, Darren Collison and Stephen Curry are better, and for the sake of argument, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

    That's 16.

    I think Calderon falls here. His defense is obviously poor, but it looks far worse on the Raptors than it would on a better defensive team. Calderon's defensive problems have gotten worse as the teams defense has gotten worse. I don't think that's a coincidence.

    On offense, he's not going to break many defenders down off the dribble, but he's a very smart passer who runs an offense efficiently and rarely turns the ball over, and incredibly underrated skill among NBA fans.

    As for the other starting PGs or possible starting PGs) around the league...
    Jrue Holiday- A great athlete who defends well, but has yet to learn how to run an offense.
    Raymond Felton- Doesn't do anything really well and considering Charlotte wanted Calderon instead of him, that should tell you something.
    Mo Williams- Great spot up shooter, but can't run an offense and looked good only next to LeBron, and even then...
    Jonny Flynn- He might end up being a good PG, but not yet.
    DJ Augustin- See above
    Ramon Sessions- Minnesota gave him away for cap room a year after signing him.
    Rodney Stuckey- Is great at driving to the basket, but does little else.
    Mike Bibby- At his age, Calderon does everything he does, but better.
    Mario Chalmers- Great defender. Did I say he was a great defender?
    Steve Blake- A solid backup who doesn't do anything really well, but doesn't do anything poorly.
    Aaron Brooks- He's really nice, unless you want your PG to do something other than score.
    Baron Davis- When he's not injured, and when he cares, and when he's not overweight...what was I saying?
    Beno Udrih- Do I really need to say anything?
    Mike Conley- See above.

    Some may say that Calderon isn't even the best PG on the team, but the fact is that the team played better when Calderon was on the floor than when Jack was running the team. Jack is a great backup PG, but he isn't great at running an offense and doesn't make those around him better.

    So, is Calderon a top 20 PG? I think he is.
    Jose Calderon is definitely a Top 20 PG, got to give my props here. However, elite PG and C players in the NBA are getting rare which could be the reason for such.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    874
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    What's the point of this poll? There's only 30 teams in the league, so anybody below #15 is sub-par already. Top 20? C'mon guys, I know it's the final days of summer, and almost nothing left to talk about, but really.

    EDIT: Or perhaps you could simply re-title the poll: Do the Raptor PGs (a) suck, or (b) really suck?
    Last edited by golden; Fri Sep 3rd, 2010 at 11:53 PM.

  3. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,613
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Jose is under Jack- do the NBA pg math.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Rookie Fon Riego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    84
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
    Jose is under Jack- do the NBA pg math.

    Noooooo way. I'd agree that when Jose starts, his performance is worse than when he came out of the bench, but even then he's a better player than Jack. I like Jack, but people use to think he's a great defender, and he's just a little better than Jose. When it comes to run an offense, there is no posible comparison. Ask Weems or Johnson, I'm pretty sure they prefer Jose running the offense for them than Jack.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Rookie Tmar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    71
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Jose is the master of the clap defence...that alone should put him in the top 20.

    All joking aside, his ability to run an offence should not be questioned and I think the majority of people will agree with that. No that there is no power struggle for "ball", he should get more assits and be more comfortable in the offence.

    His defence is pretty bad, but is totally magnified with the fact that there is no help behind him. His problem is that he waits for the attacking PG at the top of the arc, thus letting the other team set up for a high screen, which Jose has problems getting around. He needs to put pressure right at half court to prevent the other point to gain speed on the dribble and eliminating a screen and roll.

    He also seems lost when the he's not defending the ball handler. Too many times I see him creeping in to possibly double the low post, thus leaving his man way too open on the perimiter.

    His offence puts him in the top 20, but because of his defence, its in the low half of it.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    It depends among other things on how well he is able to master the Triangle offense in one month. The Triangle considered to be the most difficult offense in basketball to learn and master.

    The Lakers first string is a lot more dependent on the Triangle than the second unit is.

    My educated guess is that Blake comes off the bench at least to begin the season.
    You could be write. I remember reading somewhere, though, that Blake was being pencilled in as the starter.

    Quote d1m45h wrote: View Post
    Forgetting about Gilbert Arenas, Ty Lawson? I would argue that Jameer Nelson is better than Jose. Also Mo Williams, Mike Bibby, Kirk Hinrich, Baron Davis and Aaron Brooks are on same level as Calderon. Tyreke Evans and Montal Ellis are combo guards which means they can be qualified as PG's
    I did forget Gilbert Arenas, but Ty Lawson was left off intentionally. First of all, he's not a starter, and while I think he's got a very bright future, he only played 20 mpg last season so I'm not ready to anoint him just yet.

    I don't think the players you mentioned are on the same level as Calderon. Especially not Davis or Bibby, not now. Both of them are well past their prime and both the Clippers and Atlanta would be improved if Calderon replaced them. I think the same is true of Cleveland and Houston.

    And while Evans certainly dominates the ball, neither he nor Monta Ellis are PGs by any stretch of the imagination. If that's the case, the you'd have to include Kobe, Dwayne Wade and Brandon Roy.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,799
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Calderon > Arenas

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    240
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't think you can put Wall in there just yet. I'm sure I will retract this soon, but to start the season, no.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    36
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Threads like this one make me sick. Gilbert Arenas isn't better? Why? Because he hasn't played last season?

    Brooks and Mo Williams worse than Jose? I really laughed about that one. Making an All-Star Team and playing strong next to LeBron is worse than getting embarrased nearly every posession at the defensive end? There are PGs who score and there are PGs who shoot. Just because they don't have to carry the ball all the time doensn't make them worse than Calderon. Did you see the playoffs? I liked what i saw from Jennings and Nelson.

    I love the way Jose plays but please stop overachieving every Raptor.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    448
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think that ranking Jose depends a lot on what teammates you consider him alongside. In Toronto he's probably somewhere in the 15-20 range because of his defense, but he could be far more valuable on another club with players that suit his game.

    For instance, if you swapped Jose over to Houston to play with a lineup of Yao + Scola + Battier + Martin, he'd be able to put his offensive skills to far better use, while Yao, Scola and Battier helped to hide his defensive issues.

    Same thing with Jose in Orlando, where they could really use his distribution skills and ability to run an offense while having Dwight Howard behind him would obviously help.

    Portland with a healthy Oden + Alridge + Batum + Roy would be another great fit.

    It's all relative. But even in an ideal situation for Jose he shouldn't be considered top-12.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jjiio wrote: View Post
    Threads like this one make me sick. Gilbert Arenas isn't better? Why? Because he hasn't played last season?

    Brooks and Mo Williams worse than Jose? I really laughed about that one. Making an All-Star Team and playing strong next to LeBron is worse than getting embarrased nearly every posession at the defensive end? There are PGs who score and there are PGs who shoot. Just because they don't have to carry the ball all the time doensn't make them worse than Calderon. Did you see the playoffs? I liked what i saw from Jennings and Nelson.

    I love the way Jose plays but please stop overachieving every Raptor.
    What makes me sick is overrating a PG simply because he can score, even if he can't do what a PG is SUPPOSED to do, and that's run an offense. Mo Williams made the All-Star team simply because he played next to LeBron on a Cleveland team that won a lot of games. Stick Calderon in there, instead, and I'm pretty sure he'd look better than Williams. He's at least on par as a shooter, plus he's a much better passer.

    I actually rated Jennings over Calderon, and gave Nelson the benefit of the doubt. But your comment about watching in the playoffs made me chuckle. Lots of players overperform in the playoffs. Need I point to Jason Kapono, who killed in the playoffs the first season with Toronto. He never came close to that before or since.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    130
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I just added some of these stats in the "Is Bargnani a top 10 Center" thread so I thought I should add some here as well. Again, I don't know how to weight this stat in terms of relevance, but it is a stat none the less. According to Basketball Reference Jose Calderon's "Win Share" stat is 4.2, placing him 25th among last year's point guards (Jack was 20th).

    His Offensive Win Share was 4.2 (placing him 9th, and Jack was 8th)
    His Defensive Win Share was 0!!! (174th among guards, didn't even want to figure out where that is among point guards)... the highest guard for the Raptors was Weems at 0.5, so no Raptor guards were in the top 100 in this stat.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    36
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    What makes me sick is overrating a PG simply because he can score, even if he can't do what a PG is SUPPOSED to do, and that's run an offense. Mo Williams made the All-Star team simply because he played next to LeBron on a Cleveland team that won a lot of games. Stick Calderon in there, instead, and I'm pretty sure he'd look better than Williams. He's at least on par as a shooter, plus he's a much better passer.

    I actually rated Jennings over Calderon, and gave Nelson the benefit of the doubt. But your comment about watching in the playoffs made me chuckle. Lots of players overperform in the playoffs. Need I point to Jason Kapono, who killed in the playoffs the first season with Toronto. He never came close to that before or since.
    I simply disagree. Not every PG is supposed to run the offense. Why would you let your PG run the offense if you have LeBron or Wade? What also seperates Brooks or Williams from Calderon is, that they can play some defense. On the offensive end, Calderon might be in the top-20 because of his intelligence but you also have to mention the defense and thats were Jose is lost. Scoring guards create space and opputunities for teammates with there ability to score and guards like Jose or Kidd do it with their passing. That's the way i see it. Of course Jose doesn't get the credt he deserves for his play but rating him better than the players i've mentioned after the last season isn't logical to me.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Rookie YKR23's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Rep TDOT till' the bury me
    Posts
    70
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    no way hes top 20, maybe a few seasons ago he would have been considered top 15 maybe. but his defense is terrible, which brings him down heavily. in terms of assists, free throw percentage, 3 pt shooting, assist/turnover ratio hes probably top 10 in all of those catagories. but hes defense is just tooo bad.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i'd have jrue holiday in your fringe group based on his second half of last season. he was also the best player in either summer league, i think.

    at this point i'd have all the dudes in your fringe group ahead of jason kidd, as well, and probably put calderon right after kidd. kidd can still run an offense, is still one of the best rebounding guards, and (ironically) long distance shooting has become one of his greatest strengths in the twilight of his career, but at this point his defense is almost as much of a liability as calderon's.

    apart from that i can't argue with anything you've said
    I don't see how Kidd's defense is as much of a liability as Calderon's, when Kidd's DWS was 4 last year and Calderon's was 0.

    J.Kidd: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../kiddja01.html)
    J.Calderon: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...caldejo01.html)

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4,942
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jjiio wrote: View Post
    I simply disagree. Not every PG is supposed to run the offense. Why would you let your PG run the offense if you have LeBron or Wade? What also seperates Brooks or Williams from Calderon is, that they can play some defense. On the offensive end, Calderon might be in the top-20 because of his intelligence but you also have to mention the defense and thats were Jose is lost. Scoring guards create space and opputunities for teammates with there ability to score and guards like Jose or Kidd do it with their passing. That's the way i see it. Of course Jose doesn't get the credt he deserves for his play but rating him better than the players i've mentioned after the last season isn't logical to me.
    There's a difference between a PG having to run and offense, and being able to. If a PG doesn't know how to run an offense, he's simply not really a PG. He's a short SG. Those guys work on on certain strict situations where someone else can run the offense. On Cleveland, next to LeBron, Mo Williams worked. Now that he's gone, I'm betting he's not going to look nearly as good.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Rookie lusset blither's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    19
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Within the right system and without injuries he would be in the top 15. With his health curriculum and with the way he (and his mates) has been coached, possibly out of the 20.

    Too bad, he's a great guy, he's got balls and he is a very loyal person (something as rare today as a game of Amir without a foul or a turnover)
    ka mate, ka ora, whiti te rā!!, hī!

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote f=ma wrote: View Post
    I don't see how Kidd's defense is as much of a liability as Calderon's, when Kidd's DWS was 4 last year and Calderon's was 0.

    J.Kidd: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../kiddja01.html)
    J.Calderon: (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...caldejo01.html)
    well first of all, i might have been exaggerating just a tad. nobody's worse than calderon. but can you explain to me what a defensive win share is and how it is calculated, off the top of your head?

    advanced stats are great and all but people need to stop referring to them as the final word on a players worth. just looking at the top 20 in DWS last year i can see that it's a flawed statistic, and overvalues players playing in good defensive systems (ie. carlos boozer is one of the best defensive players in the league, and michael beasley is 8 spots ahead of ron artest, and 11 ahead of joakim noah. lol).

    looking at just the mavs, dirk is apparently their best defender (along with kidd) while brendan haywood is amongst the worst. now, having actually watched basketball games that the mavericks have played, i know that dirk is not a better defender than brendan haywood. neither is drew gooden.

    example from our team: antoine right. DWS of 0.2, right near the bottom and far below bargs. antoine right started on that dallas team, and i'd wager it wasn't because he was a scoring machine. did he forget how or just completely lose the ability to defend people? i'm going with no, he just played on a team that was historically bad defensively.

    it's like the other day when someone was saying in the comments section that isiah thomas was far from the best player on those piston title teams cuz rick mahorn had a better WS per 48 or something. i'm sorry dude but that's retarded. here are the all-time career leaders in WS/48:
    1. chad gallagher
    2. tyson wheeler
    3. dave scholz
    4. ian lockhart
    5. steven hill

    heard of those guys? me neither. michael jordan is 19th, btw.

    anyhow the point of this rambling post is just to say that jason kidd could not stop my grandmother from getting by him at this stage in his career. i know this because i watch basketball games, and not because of a metric i don't even understand on basketball-reference.com told me so.
    Last edited by chris; Sat Sep 4th, 2010 at 09:14 PM.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Ya, Kidd probably belongs in the fringe group, but he's probably still second behind Nash at making his teammates better, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

    I don't know about Holiday. I'm still not sold on him, yet.



    I think at this point, Curry is behind Calderon, but this year it could definitely change. Curry is a fantastic shooter and a smart player, but doesn't quite know how to run an offense, yet. I do think he's going to be an All-Star calibre player in a year or two, though.
    i got curry ahead of calderon right now. everyone raves about his shooting, with good reason, but he's really an excellent passer and has a pretty insane handle, too. and intelligent, as you said. he will be fantastic.

    i will admit though that i'm having trouble in this thread distinguishing between how good a player is now and how good i think he is going to be

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    698
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Fon Riego wrote: View Post
    Noooooo way. I'd agree that when Jose starts, his performance is worse than when he came out of the bench, but even then he's a better player than Jack. I like Jack, but people use to think he's a great defender, and he's just a little better than Jose. When it comes to run an offense, there is no posible comparison. Ask Weems or Johnson, I'm pretty sure they prefer Jose running the offense for them than Jack.
    With all his faults included Jose is still a way better PG than Jack. Jack is a hustle guy who can have great stretches, but is not very good at making his teamates better. Jack plays defense better than Jose, but everything else is Jose.
    Jose is a way better passer, shooter and ball handler, with superior IQ and court vision. His biggest issue has been injuries and poor defense and especially a system that has the players switching constantly even when they can break through screens.
    Jack should be a bench guard.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •