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Is Jose Calderon A Top 20 PG?

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  • #16
    I think jose in his prime when he was doing well would be a top 10 point guard but presently I would put him out of the top 20
    ya dun noe

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    • #17
      I notice all the people who rank him out of the top 20 don't actually say who else they think is better than him.

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      • #18
        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        Ya, I thought about Fisher, but left him off because I think Steve Blake will start. Fisher certainly was a very good PG, but I think this year will see him play a much smaller role during the regular season.
        It depends among other things on how well he is able to master the Triangle offense in one month. The Triangle considered to be the most difficult offense in basketball to learn and master.

        The Lakers first string is a lot more dependent on the Triangle than the second unit is.

        My educated guess is that Blake comes off the bench at least to begin the season.
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        • #19
          JoePanini wrote: View Post
          I think he definitely is, you can't go from being considered a top 10 PG to not a top 20 PG in the space of a year. He is a great PG, he's just had his issues. I still remember when I went to the ACC for the first time, we were all chanting MVP at him so yeah. He is a great passer has great vision, his offence is pretty good. His defence is shit though. He can shoot pretty decently... He's definitely better than all the players you listed after him. Flynn sucks, he's a top 50 PG maybe, he'll never be great. Or even good. He scored alright, got a couple of assists. But if you watch him, it almost hurts.
          He was never considered a top 10 pg. At best, he's number 20 but probably 2 or 3 notches below that...

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          • #20
            Forgetting about Gilbert Arenas, Ty Lawson? I would argue that Jameer Nelson is better than Jose. Also Mo Williams, Mike Bibby, Kirk Hinrich, Baron Davis and Aaron Brooks are on same level as Calderon. Tyreke Evans and Montal Ellis are combo guards which means they can be qualified as PG's

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            • #21
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              This comes out of the Bargnani being a top 10 center thread. When some fans explained that Bargnani is a top ten center because he could end up being the highest scoring center. I argued that by that logic, Calderon might be a top ten PG, but he IS one of the most efficient PGs on the offensive end. He has consistently finished in the top ten each years in assists per minute and is usually in the top 3 for assist/TO. He shoots a high percentage from the field, including beyond the three point line and from the free throw line. And he's one of the better PGs in the league at running an offense and making his teammates better.

              That got me thinking. Obviously Calderon is not a top ten PG, but is he a top 20 one?

              In no particular order...

              Chris Paul
              Deron Williams
              Steve Nash
              Tony Parker
              Jason Kidd
              Rajon Rondo
              Russell Westbrook
              Andre Miller
              Brandon Jennings
              Chauncey Billups
              Derrick Rose
              John Wall

              I don't think anyone is going to argue that Calderon is better than any of those players. That's 12.

              A case can be made that Jameer Nelson, Devon Harris, Darren Collison and Stephen Curry are better, and for the sake of argument, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

              That's 16.

              I think Calderon falls here. His defense is obviously poor, but it looks far worse on the Raptors than it would on a better defensive team. Calderon's defensive problems have gotten worse as the teams defense has gotten worse. I don't think that's a coincidence.

              On offense, he's not going to break many defenders down off the dribble, but he's a very smart passer who runs an offense efficiently and rarely turns the ball over, and incredibly underrated skill among NBA fans.

              As for the other starting PGs or possible starting PGs) around the league...
              Jrue Holiday- A great athlete who defends well, but has yet to learn how to run an offense.
              Raymond Felton- Doesn't do anything really well and considering Charlotte wanted Calderon instead of him, that should tell you something.
              Mo Williams- Great spot up shooter, but can't run an offense and looked good only next to LeBron, and even then...
              Jonny Flynn- He might end up being a good PG, but not yet.
              DJ Augustin- See above
              Ramon Sessions- Minnesota gave him away for cap room a year after signing him.
              Rodney Stuckey- Is great at driving to the basket, but does little else.
              Mike Bibby- At his age, Calderon does everything he does, but better.
              Mario Chalmers- Great defender. Did I say he was a great defender?
              Steve Blake- A solid backup who doesn't do anything really well, but doesn't do anything poorly.
              Aaron Brooks- He's really nice, unless you want your PG to do something other than score.
              Baron Davis- When he's not injured, and when he cares, and when he's not overweight...what was I saying?
              Beno Udrih- Do I really need to say anything?
              Mike Conley- See above.

              Some may say that Calderon isn't even the best PG on the team, but the fact is that the team played better when Calderon was on the floor than when Jack was running the team. Jack is a great backup PG, but he isn't great at running an offense and doesn't make those around him better.

              So, is Calderon a top 20 PG? I think he is.
              Jose Calderon is definitely a Top 20 PG, got to give my props here. However, elite PG and C players in the NBA are getting rare which could be the reason for such.

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              • #22
                What's the point of this poll? There's only 30 teams in the league, so anybody below #15 is sub-par already. Top 20? C'mon guys, I know it's the final days of summer, and almost nothing left to talk about, but really.

                EDIT: Or perhaps you could simply re-title the poll: Do the Raptor PGs (a) suck, or (b) really suck?
                Last edited by golden; Fri Sep 3, 2010, 11:53 PM.

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                • #23
                  Jose is under Jack- do the NBA pg math.

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                  • #24
                    SirChillyMost wrote: View Post
                    Jose is under Jack- do the NBA pg math.

                    Noooooo way. I'd agree that when Jose starts, his performance is worse than when he came out of the bench, but even then he's a better player than Jack. I like Jack, but people use to think he's a great defender, and he's just a little better than Jose. When it comes to run an offense, there is no posible comparison. Ask Weems or Johnson, I'm pretty sure they prefer Jose running the offense for them than Jack.

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                    • #25
                      Jose is the master of the clap defence...that alone should put him in the top 20.

                      All joking aside, his ability to run an offence should not be questioned and I think the majority of people will agree with that. No that there is no power struggle for "ball", he should get more assits and be more comfortable in the offence.

                      His defence is pretty bad, but is totally magnified with the fact that there is no help behind him. His problem is that he waits for the attacking PG at the top of the arc, thus letting the other team set up for a high screen, which Jose has problems getting around. He needs to put pressure right at half court to prevent the other point to gain speed on the dribble and eliminating a screen and roll.

                      He also seems lost when the he's not defending the ball handler. Too many times I see him creeping in to possibly double the low post, thus leaving his man way too open on the perimiter.

                      His offence puts him in the top 20, but because of his defence, its in the low half of it.

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                      • #26
                        Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                        It depends among other things on how well he is able to master the Triangle offense in one month. The Triangle considered to be the most difficult offense in basketball to learn and master.

                        The Lakers first string is a lot more dependent on the Triangle than the second unit is.

                        My educated guess is that Blake comes off the bench at least to begin the season.
                        You could be write. I remember reading somewhere, though, that Blake was being pencilled in as the starter.

                        d1m45h wrote: View Post
                        Forgetting about Gilbert Arenas, Ty Lawson? I would argue that Jameer Nelson is better than Jose. Also Mo Williams, Mike Bibby, Kirk Hinrich, Baron Davis and Aaron Brooks are on same level as Calderon. Tyreke Evans and Montal Ellis are combo guards which means they can be qualified as PG's
                        I did forget Gilbert Arenas, but Ty Lawson was left off intentionally. First of all, he's not a starter, and while I think he's got a very bright future, he only played 20 mpg last season so I'm not ready to anoint him just yet.

                        I don't think the players you mentioned are on the same level as Calderon. Especially not Davis or Bibby, not now. Both of them are well past their prime and both the Clippers and Atlanta would be improved if Calderon replaced them. I think the same is true of Cleveland and Houston.

                        And while Evans certainly dominates the ball, neither he nor Monta Ellis are PGs by any stretch of the imagination. If that's the case, the you'd have to include Kobe, Dwayne Wade and Brandon Roy.
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                        • #27
                          Calderon > Arenas

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                          • #28
                            I don't think you can put Wall in there just yet. I'm sure I will retract this soon, but to start the season, no.

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                            • #29
                              Threads like this one make me sick. Gilbert Arenas isn't better? Why? Because he hasn't played last season?

                              Brooks and Mo Williams worse than Jose? I really laughed about that one. Making an All-Star Team and playing strong next to LeBron is worse than getting embarrased nearly every posession at the defensive end? There are PGs who score and there are PGs who shoot. Just because they don't have to carry the ball all the time doensn't make them worse than Calderon. Did you see the playoffs? I liked what i saw from Jennings and Nelson.

                              I love the way Jose plays but please stop overachieving every Raptor.

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                              • #30
                                I think that ranking Jose depends a lot on what teammates you consider him alongside. In Toronto he's probably somewhere in the 15-20 range because of his defense, but he could be far more valuable on another club with players that suit his game.

                                For instance, if you swapped Jose over to Houston to play with a lineup of Yao + Scola + Battier + Martin, he'd be able to put his offensive skills to far better use, while Yao, Scola and Battier helped to hide his defensive issues.

                                Same thing with Jose in Orlando, where they could really use his distribution skills and ability to run an offense while having Dwight Howard behind him would obviously help.

                                Portland with a healthy Oden + Alridge + Batum + Roy would be another great fit.

                                It's all relative. But even in an ideal situation for Jose he shouldn't be considered top-12.

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