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Proper Positions & the Raps' Dilemma (Doug Smith's Opinion - Post 37)

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  • #16
    I disagree entirely with the premise of the post (but I'm glad that the OP opened the discussion). The concept of 1-5 positions is outdated and incorrect, in my view, and understanding basketball positions in a more realistic way is a major interesting challenge.

    The basic divide is between defense and offense. How a player is best used on offense often diverges from who they are best suited to guard on defense. The classic example of this is the 'tweener' guard, such as Leandro Barbosa -- on offense, doesn't play as a point, but as a shooter, cutter, penetrator; on defense, must guard the shortest players. The traditional way of saying this is that he's a 2 on offense, a 1 on defense, but even this is misleading.

    Why is it misleading? Because there is not much distinction between a 2 and a 3, offensively. Some 2's or 3's dominate the ball, like LeBron or Carmelo, others get their offense from catching and shooting, like Jason Kapono, others provide offense in transition or from cuts, like DeMar DeRozan. On offense, Kobe has more in common with LeBron than he does with DeMar, even though Kobe and DeMar are the same height and are both '2's, in theory.


    I think this is the best post I have read on RR since I have been reading this board. Of course, I may be influenced by the fact that I agree with the points above...but a lot of the arguments and debates I see are based on somewhat specious logic.

    Is Bargnani (insert any Raptor name here) a 5? I don't care if he a 5 or a 4 or a 3, or what position you put him on...will he create scoring opportunities for himself and others, will he box out his man, and negate opportunities for the offensive unit he opposes. Will he create mismatches, AND take advantage of them.

    Comment


    • #17
      Bargnani is not a 5, he calls himself a 4 and the only thing that makes him a centre is his height. As per the original poster I got a couple of points.

      I agree with premise the of the 1-5, simply because the two best teams last year exemplified that classification.

      Lakers: 1.Fisher 2.Kobe 3.Artest 4.Gasol 5.Bynum. All play their positions differently and they compliment each other. Their 6.Odom is an undersized 5. and plays a 4/5 game which is a good thing for a player coming off the bench.

      Boston: 1.Rondo 2.Allen 3.Pierce 4.Garnett 5.Perkins. Big baby is an undersized 5. Wallace is a stretch 5. The rest of their bench can play as hybrids between two positions.

      If these are the model teams, you want to build your starters as your best match-up players. Your bench should be made up of versatile role-players.

      So..for the Raptors.
      1. Jack (traditional 1). 2.Derozan (2/3) 3.Kleiza (4/5) 4. Bargnani (4/5) 5. Johnson (undersized 5).

      Bench: Davis (traditional 4). Barbosa (undersized 2). Weems (2- undersized 3). Calderon (traditional 1). Wright (A 3 who is much more effective as a 4).

      Bench Warmers: Anderson (stretch 5). Alabi (traditional 5). Dorsey (A 4 who plays like a 5.) Evans (A 4 who plays like a 5).

      So, essentially the team has starters who'd be versatile bench warmers on a contender. The bench is made up of players who are either limited by their size or talent and play out of position. This is the teams failure with players who don't match up well against the competition.

      My favourite Raptors starting squad of all-time. 1.McGrady 2.Christie 3.Carter. 4.Oakley 5.Davis. (1999-2000) Is a talented traditional starting 5, something this team should build towards.
      -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
      -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

      Comment


      • #18
        With respect to the Lakers

        Kobe has played both the #2 and the #3
        Artest has played both the #3 and the #4
        Gasol has played both the #4 and #5
        Odom at times as played the #3, #4 or #5. He played the #5 a bit after the Lakers got sick of playing Kwame. but before they traded him for Pau.

        The Lakers preference along with probably every other team in the league including the Raptors is to play their five starters in the positions that they are best suited for

        With regard to the Raptors if we are to use the outdated numbering concept

        Bargnani is a #5 straight up.
        Johnson is a #4 - He is in no way shape or form a #5 according to the outdated numbering scheme.
        Kleiza is a #3 in the NBA which is after all what we are talking about
        Calderon is a #1
        DeRozan is a primarily a #2
        Jack is combo

        The problem here in addition to the numbering concept now being outdated is that fans think they know more than the professionals who are running a team as to what position a player is best suited for. This is total nonsense.

        Unfortunately the reason that a lot of fans and even writers get thrown off track here is because a team will play a player out of position for extended periods of time if they think that that is beneficial to the team as a whole given the team's roster makeup. Al Horford being a prime current example. So as a result of this fans and writers say that the Hawks are playing Horford out of position which is true is a fantasy world but in fact the Hawks are playing him in the position best for the team given the reality of the Hawks current roster.
        Last edited by Buddahfan; Thu Sep 16, 2010, 10:31 AM.
        Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

        Memories some so sweet, indeed

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        “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
        Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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        • #19
          malefax wrote: View Post
          Buddah: I agree that creating a shot doesn't require dribbling necessarily, but I disagree that it is enough simply to receive the ball in a position to shoot. If someone can only shoot if they're open (as is often the case), and they become open as the result of something someone else did (e.g. the PG drives and then kicks), they didn't create the shot. If someone's 'sweet spot' is 'open on the three point line', the question has to arise: why are they open? If it's not because of something they did, they didn't create the shot, even if they're the one who knocks it down.
          I see your point of view which is what most people say. However, as I have posted I happen to disagree with the general concept here.

          When you position yourself to receive the ball in your sweet spot you are doing the same thing as when you dribble to the sweet spot in terms of the ultimate goal which is to make a basket.

          It is not as simple as you apparently think to position oneself properly behind the arc in order to receive a pass and shoot the ball successfully. Otherwise that is all that everyone would do.

          There is a lot less margin for error in shooting a three point shot than there is to shooting a five foot jump shot otherwise shooting percentages on three point shots would be at least as high as they they are on five foot shots, which of course they are not.

          Maybe I wasn't clear before. Creating your own shot in my opinion does not mean just getting yourself in position with the ball to take a shot. It means getting the ball in a location and body position where you have an above average chance of making the shot.

          If the league average say is 45% on two point shots from the elbow and a particular player only shoots 30% from the elbow in my opinion they are not creating their shot when they shoot from the elbow. Johnson is an example of this. Last season he shot pretty poorly on his jump shots from the elbow, especially visa visa his other shooting. So to me when he got the ball or dribbled the ball to the elbow and then took a shot he was not creating a shot in either case because it was a lousy shot for him.

          A player can dribble the ball all you want before taking a shot, but if it ends up being a bad shot; i.e. below average chance of going in, they are not in my opinion creating their own shot.

          Anyone on the court at any time that they have the ball can take a shot, but obviously the team wants their players to take a good shot with an above average chance of going through the rim.

          Bottom line is that I define creating a shot to mean: Getting the ball in a location via a pass or to a location via a dribble and body position where you have at least an average percentage chance of making the shot. I could care less how you get there with the ball.
          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

          Memories some so sweet, indeed

          Larger Photo of the avatar



          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

          Comment


          • #20
            Buddahfan wrote: View Post

            Bargnani is a #5 straight up.
            Johnson is a #4 - He is in no way shape or form a #5 according to the outdated numbering scheme.
            Kleiza is a #3 in the NBA which is after all what we are talking about
            Calderon is a #1
            DeRozan is a primarily a #2
            Jack is combo
            Why is Bargnani a 5? Is it his style of play or his height? If Howard is a 5 and Nowitzki is a 4, Bargnani is also a 4.

            Johnson is a 5 the same way Big Baby is a 5. They are both undersized but their game is limited to 5ft from the basket.

            Kleiza is a 3 for Denver and will most likely be a 3 for Toronto. However, his face up game is much better than his 3-point game and he was most effective for Lithuania as a 4. When I say 1-5 its about style of play that's it.
            -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
            -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

            Comment


            • #21
              Raptorsss wrote: View Post
              Why is Bargnani a 5? Is it his style of play or his height? If Howard is a 5 and Nowitzki is a 4, Bargnani is also a 4.

              Johnson is a 5 the same way Big Baby is a 5. They are both undersized but their game is limited to 5ft from the basket.

              Kleiza is a 3 for Denver and will most likely be a 3 for Toronto. However, his face up game is much better than his 3-point game and he was most effective for Lithuania as a 4. When I say 1-5 its about style of play that's it.
              Bargnani is a 5 because that's the position he defends the best. What a player does on offense has very little bearing on what position they play (except PG). Howard is a 5 because that's the position he defends the best. Nowitzki is a 4 because that's the position HE defends the best. When he played the 5, he got up too badly in the post.

              Johnson isn't big enough to play the 5, unlike Glen Davis, who, while shorter than most centers has the, um, girth to defend the position. Against quicker 4s he's at a bit of a disadvantage.

              Okur is a 5 despite shooting outside. Same goes for Channing Frye last season. So were Laimbeer, Sabonis and countless other big men that spent a lot of time behind the 3 point line.

              Patrick Ewing was a high post center that was known for his jump shot.

              It used to be that the prototypical power forward was a banger who rebounded and defended, but only scored when open around the basket.

              Like I said the ONLY difference between a 5 and a 4 is who they guard best, and Bargnani defends 5s best, which is why he is a 5.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • #22
                Raptorsss wrote: View Post
                Why is Bargnani a 5? Is it his style of play or his height? If Howard is a 5 and Nowitzki is a 4, Bargnani is also a 4.

                Johnson is a 5 the same way Big Baby is a 5. They are both undersized but their game is limited to 5ft from the basket.

                Kleiza is a 3 for Denver and will most likely be a 3 for Toronto. However, his face up game is much better than his 3-point game and he was most effective for Lithuania as a 4. When I say 1-5 its about style of play that's it.
                Bargnani is 7 feet tall and strong enough to hold his own at the #5 that is why using the outdated numbering system he is a #5

                You may think that Johnson is a #5 but his minutes played and what he has personally said about himself say he is a #4 straight up. He did not play center when he played in the D-league or since he has been in the NBA except in an emergency situation. I also believe that he did not play center in high school though I am not sure about that one.

                Go here for his minutes break down by position in 09-10

                http://www.82games.com/0910/09TOR9.HTM

                or here for 2008-09

                http://www.82games.com/0809/0809DET.HTM


                The concept of style of play is used by people who use the numbering system. However, it is my opinion that the whole concept of style used to pigeon hole a player into a numbered position is just outdated. I used the example above about Johnson just to frame my response in your universe of thinking regarding the subject. However, my comments above about both Bargnani and Johnson should in no way be taken to mean that I hold by the numbering system.

                You would think that for someone so into numbers that I would use them here when it comes to positioning however that is obviously not the case.
                Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                Memories some so sweet, indeed

                Larger Photo of the avatar



                “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  Bargnani is a 5 because that's the position he defends the best. What a player does on offense has very little bearing on what position they play (except PG). Howard is a 5 because that's the position he defends the best. Nowitzki is a 4 because that's the position HE defends the best. When he played the 5, he got up too badly in the post.

                  Johnson isn't big enough to play the 5, unlike Glen Davis, who, while shorter than most centers has the, um, girth to defend the position. Against quicker 4s he's at a bit of a disadvantage.

                  Okur is a 5 despite shooting outside. Same goes for Channing Frye last season. So were Laimbeer, Sabonis and countless other big men that spent a lot of time behind the 3 point line.

                  Patrick Ewing was a high post center that was known for his jump shot.

                  It used to be that the prototypical power forward was a banger who rebounded and defended, but only scored when open around the basket.

                  Like I said the ONLY difference between a 5 and a 4 is who they guard best, and Bargnani defends 5s best, which is why he is a 5.
                  +1

                  I like your response a lot better than mine above
                  Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

                  Memories some so sweet, indeed

                  Larger Photo of the avatar



                  “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
                  Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    At Tim fair enough. However, with a Bargnani/Johnson front court. On offense they'd look like a 4/5 even if on defense they guard 5/4.
                    -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                    -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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                    • #25
                      Raptorsss wrote: View Post
                      At Tim fair enough. However, with a Bargnani/Johnson front court. On offense they'd look like a 4/5 even if on defense they guard 5/4.
                      But why would a PF shoot outside and a center play inside? That's certainly not historically been the norm. Certainly not in the NBA. Historically, more often than not, the center has been the front court player with the best offensive skills. Among the top 25 scorers of all time, there are only 2 PFs compared to 10 centers. WHERE they play on offense is moot. And it's always been that way.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #26
                        At least Tim Chisolm agrees with me http://tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=333978
                        -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                        -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          My thoughts on this is that the whole concept of set positions are outdated. How do you classify LeBron James? The guy can play four positions. Players are more versatile these days and on top of that a lot of the old school traditional big man tools are being lost because they're not being taught at the youth level. If you want to stick with the set position mindset then you need to be prepared to eliminate the center position all together from most depth charts around the league because it ain't present anymore. The game is a lot different than it was 20 years ago when set positions were relevant. The rules have changed and what the kids learn is different now. When was the last time anybody in here seen a hook shot used on an NBA court?

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                          • #28
                            Doesn't Shaq use a variation of the hook shot?
                            -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
                            -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Raptorsss wrote: View Post
                              At least Tim Chisolm agrees with me http://tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=333978
                              He also apparently thinks that Amir is a center. I remember one sportswriter classified James Worthy as a PF even though I would think he would be the prototypical small forward for that era.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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                              • #30
                                If Bargnani could average 8.5 or higher rebs a game, no one would give a shart where he scored from.

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