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Thread: ESPN Insider: Chad Ford grades summer moves, Raptors get a...

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    Default ESPN Insider: Chad Ford grades summer moves, Raptors get a...

    D+

    Key additions: Leandro Barbosa (trade), Linas Kleiza (FA), Amir Johnson (re-signed), Ed Davis (draft)
    Key subtractions: Chris Bosh , Hedo Turkoglu , Marco Belinelli , Antoine Wright

    We've focused on the pain Cavs fans have felt all summer. But what about Raptors fans? Three years ago, when GM Bryan Colangelo arrived, it appeared that the Raptors were finally on the right path. Now? They may be in worse shape than the Cavs.
    Losing Bosh was a huge blow, but it wasn't the only one Raptors fans endured this summer. The team also essentially admitted that it made a big mistake in signing Turkoglu last summer and traded him to Phoenix for Barbosa. In a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to losing Bosh, the Raptors also overpaid Amir Johnson to take his place.
    Top it off with a botched trade that would have landed them Tyson Chandler and Boris Diaw for Jose Calderon (blame MJ for that one) and it's been a pretty crappy summer.
    On the bright side, however, the Raptors did get their hands on a pretty good prospect in the draft: Ed Davis. He was projected as a top-three pick before last season, but slid a bit because of injuries and a so-so sophomore year. But the talent, as Raptors fans saw in the summer league, is there.
    The team also has to be pleased with the way Kleiza played in the FIBA World Championship. He should add a level of toughness to the team. And Barbosa may not be a star, but I think he fits Colangelo's vision in the backcourt more than other guards he's had in the past. It's all small consolation, sure … but at least it's something.
    Grade: D+

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Only about 6 more weeks and we will start to get the real grades for 10-11.

    I have a sense it will be a lot higher than a lot of the so called basketball pundits are now grading the Raptors at.
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    Right, D+... Worse than the Cavs? Right... Yeah, and this guy is getting paid for this -_- And why does he mention Turk in a bad way, we got rid of him, shouldn't it be a +?

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    Chad Ford is a tool...we should get a B+ for being able to get rid of Turk alone...

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    D+
    First things first I have to say, I am a Colangelo fan or a BC apologist as some on this site may say - whatever, I can live with that label.

    Now that is out of the way you can decide to read the rest or not.

    Personally I think he is more a victim of circumstance than anything with his tenure in T.O. Think about what has happened:

    1) Garbo injury
    2) Ford injury
    3) Calderon injuries and regression
    4) trying to build around Bosh who is not a franchise player with
    a) Jermaine O'Neal
    b) Turkoglu
    5) having O'Neal get re-injured (again)
    6) having Turk be a lazy, whiny slob
    7) Bosh was not exactly truthful or open with his intentions (partly BC's fault, see below)
    8) Jordan pull out of the trade this summer with Charlotte

    To show I am not totally biased he has made some mistakes:
    1) signed Hedo
    2) gave bloated contract to Calderon
    3) hindsight 20/20 but after he offered Bosh a contract extension and he would not sign it before the trade deadline, he should have traded him (much like Denver now)

    The unfortunate thing is he is now in a position to mold a team around his vision without the pressure of having to keep or appease Bosh. He is clearing out contracts, creating cap space, acquiring young talented pieces, and has flexibility and options. If Colangelo can move Calderon's contract before camp starts, this summer is easily a B. One thing Chad Ford did not mention is PJ Carlesimo. He is a quality coach who takes no bullsh*t and tells it like it is. Don't forget after he was with San Antonio and before he was with Toronto he was the coach of Seattle/Oklahoma. He was an assistant coach on the '92 Dream Team as well - bottom line, he ain't no slouch.

    It may be tough to swallow for Raptors fans, but this year may be a write off. Next year will be anything but as there will be cap space, draft picks, TPE, and another year under the belts of the young core already in place.

    I hope Colangelo is given the opportunity to see this through now that the drama that has been Chris Bosh over the last 2-3 years is finally gone.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Right, D+... Worse than the Cavs? Right... Yeah, and this guy is getting paid for this -_- And why does he mention Turk in a bad way, we got rid of him, shouldn't it be a +?
    If Turk plays the way he did the last few games of the world championships, and Barbosa falters, then it could be egg in the face.
    Turkoglu looks like he has turned the corner and will be in better shape this year.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    If Turk plays the way he did the last few games of the world championships, and Barbosa falters, then it could be egg in the face.
    Turkoglu looks like he has turned the corner and will be in better shape this year.
    If Turkoglu has a better year because he has a better attitude and is in better shape, that will speak more of Turkoglu than Colangelo. Turkoglu was given a huge contract - more money than most in the world can even fathom - and he whined and cried about his role all year while filling up on Pizza Pizza. You can, and I sort of do, fault Colangelo for giving him the contract however when you think about what he did with Orlando and what the Raptors needed any one of us would have done the same.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    If Turk plays the way he did the last few games of the world championships, and Barbosa falters, then it could be egg in the face.
    Turkoglu looks like he has turned the corner and will be in better shape this year.
    People make a big mistake when they compare Turk with Barbosa

    They do not play the same positions

    The proper comparisons for the 10-11 Raptors vs the 09-10 Raptors are

    10-11 vs 09-10
    -------------------
    Johnson vs Bosh - Johnson will not be as good
    Kleiza vs Turk - Kleiza will be better
    Barbosa vs A. Wright - Barbosa will be better
    Davis vs Johnson - unknown, could go either way
    Jack vs Jack - should be a slight improvement in 10-11
    Calderon vs Calderon - should be the same or an improvement in 10-11
    DeRozan vs DeRozan - will be a big improvement in 10-11
    Bargnani vs Bargnani - slight improvement in 10-11
    Andersen vs Rasho - will be an improvement in 10-11
    Reggie/Dorsey vs Reggie - will be an improvement in 10-11
    J. Wright vs POB - will be an improvement in 10-11
    Alabi vs PMB - probably not material unless Alabi surprises to the upside.

    So of all the comparisons between 10-11 and 09-10 I see only one that will be a downgrade Johnson vs Bosh. Davis vs Johnson could go either way.

    The rest of the roster should all be better in 10-11 vs 09-10 with some like DeRozan showing a major improvement.

    It seems to me that all those improvements will lead to a better Raptors team in 10-11 than in 09-10 if

    Odds are preliminary pending the completion of the pre-season
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. Johnson can play at least 30 + mpg ---- odds 30% - 70%
    2. DeRozan can make the jump in his game that I expect - 65% - 35%
    3. Davis can get up to speed and carry his own relatively quickly. 45% - 55%

    If none of those three things happen then the Raptors could very easily be worse in 10-11 then in 09-10

    The possibility is there that the Raptors could become better in 10-11 then in 09-10. It doesn't take an ESPN insider to figure that out.

    We shall see.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Thu Sep 16th, 2010 at 07:07 AM.
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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    D+ is pretty accurate in terms of grades. We did lose 2 of our 3 best players and really only have Leandro Barbosa to show for it.
    We're pretty thin. I don't know why everyone is so up in arms about it.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    People make a big mistake when they compare Turk with Barbosa

    They do not play the same positions

    The proper comparisons for the 10-11 Raptors vs the 09-10 Raptors are

    10-11 vs 09-10
    -------------------
    Johnson vs Bosh
    Kleiza vs Turk
    Barbosa vs Wright
    Davis vs Johnson
    Why can't they be compared? Turkoglu was more productive than Barbosa last year and all things considered, Turkoglu was out of shape all year and Barbosa dealt with injuries he sustained. If both are healthy and on top of their games, Turkoglu is a more valuable player. We had to deal Turkoglu though. He was never going to come into training camp in shape and all the other off the court issues, it would have been bad news.

    And in terms of comparisons, the 09-10 team you listed is far and away superior than the 10-11 version.

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    I'd give the Raptors a C.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Why can't they be compared? Turkoglu was more productive than Barbosa last year and all things considered, Turkoglu was out of shape all year and Barbosa dealt with injuries he sustained. If both are healthy and on top of their games, Turkoglu is a more valuable player. We had to deal Turkoglu though. He was never going to come into training camp in shape and all the other off the court issues, it would have been bad news.

    And in terms of comparisons, the 09-10 team you listed is far and away superior than the 10-11 version
    .
    You be man loving Bosh big time. and I mean big time
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    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    If Turk plays the way he did the last few games of the world championships, and Barbosa falters, then it could be egg in the face.
    Turkoglu looks like he has turned the corner and will be in better shape this year.
    Not really, Turk didn't ft in our system. Even if he leads the Suns to the playoffs averaging 19 6 6 I won't feel like we could have had that. He didn't fit, he was sloppy, he had no drive. I hope he finds his old self in Phoenix, but now we have Barbosa who is an improvement on any SG we had last year.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    D+ is pretty accurate in terms of grades. We did lose 2 of our 3 best players and really only have Leandro Barbosa to show for it.
    We're pretty thin. I don't know why everyone is so up in arms about it.
    Wait, we lost Bosh, who's the second best player? Turk? C'mon.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Why can't they be compared? Turkoglu was more productive than Barbosa last year and all things considered, Turkoglu was out of shape all year and Barbosa dealt with injuries he sustained. If both are healthy and on top of their games, Turkoglu is a more valuable player. We had to deal Turkoglu though. He was never going to come into training camp in shape and all the other off the court issues, it would have been bad news.

    And in terms of comparisons, the 09-10 team you listed is far and away superior than the 10-11 version.
    Turkoglu played badly, his contract lasts forever. Barbosa doesn't mind playing limited minutes, is quick and won't take shots away from Young Gunz. So for our team, I think the trade worked out for us, and maybe it will for the Suns to. But I'd rather have Barbosa than Turk.

    And, no. We won 40 games last year, you really think this years team can't come close? I say 35 wins. Only 5 away... Apart from Bosh's departure we have improved pretty much every position.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You be man loving Bosh big time. and I mean big time
    Right, so he lead this team in PPG and RPG by accident. If you don't like him for bolting to Miami, it's cool, but him give the credit where it's due. Ask any ball fan about those 2 lineups and every one in exception of a true homer would say that the 09-10 lineup is better.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Not really, Turk didn't ft in our system. Even if he leads the Suns to the playoffs averaging 19 6 6 I won't feel like we could have had that. He didn't fit, he was sloppy, he had no drive. I hope he finds his old self in Phoenix, but now we have Barbosa who is an improvement on any SG we had last year.
    If he averages 19 6 6, you don't think it's egg in our face? I agree with you that he never seemed comfortable here, but you gotta admit that it would be a big kick in the teeth.

    As for Barbosa being an improvement on any SG we had last year, it depends on what version of Barbosa shows up. If it's last year's version, then I wouldn't say it's an improvement at all.
    Last edited by MangoKid; Wed Sep 15th, 2010 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Wait, we lost Bosh, who's the second best player? Turk? C'mon.
    Come on, bro. Read. 2 of our 3 best players. I didn't say our 2 best players. ANd yeah, Turkoglu was our third best player. An out-of-shape, fat, lazy Hedo was better than anyone else on our roster that wasn't named Bosh or Bargnani.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Turkoglu played badly, his contract lasts forever. Barbosa doesn't mind playing limited minutes, is quick and won't take shots away from Young Gunz. So for our team, I think the trade worked out for us, and maybe it will for the Suns to. But I'd rather have Barbosa than Turk.

    And, no. We won 40 games last year, you really think this years team can't come close? I say 35 wins. Only 5 away... Apart from Bosh's departure we have improved pretty much every position.
    Barbosa doesn't mind playing limited minutes? Barbosa played limited minutes last year after his injuries and complained. And as for not taking shots away from the "Young Gunz", have you seen Barbosa play? That kid is one of the biggest ballhogs in the league. He has real tunnel vision for the basket and hasn't met a shot oppourtunity he didn't like. He'll be taking shots away from anyone when he's on the offensive. If you're looking for him to be a backup PG and distribute the ball, that's not his style, not his game.

    There's no way this team wins 35. I'll say this team is in the 27-30 win mark this year. And that's me being a realist. There are so many question marks surrounding this team. Way too many "If's". And I'm cool with season being a learning one with a lot of losses. We need a guy like Kyrie Irving, Perry Jones or Enes Kanter.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Right, so he lead this team in PPG and RPG by accident. If you don't like him for bolting to Miami, it's cool, but him give the credit where it's due. Ask any ball fan about those 2 lineups and every one in exception of a true homer would say that the 09-10 lineup is better.
    I have made my position on him clear

    1. Due to his health history and issues with his knee or is it knees MLSE was smart or lucky that they didn't get stuck giving him a max contract.
    2. Not a good fit with the young athletic guys because he just can't run that well anymore.
    3. Average defender at best.
    4. I see him being more exothermic as opposed to endothermic. Long term and possibly even short term the Raptors will be better without him.

    That is my opinion.

    I wish him luck and it is time to go forward.
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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