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Thread: @HPBasketball (Hardwood Paroxysm) Thinks Bargnani Plays Pretty Good Post Defense

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Default @HPBasketball (Hardwood Paroxysm) Thinks Bargnani Plays Pretty Good Post Defense

    @Smooth_Operatah post-defense: Bargnani : .8 PPP, 42% FG, 41.9% scoring percentage on 284 plays. Melo: .98 PPP, 48.3 FG%, 48.8$ scoring %

    Watching Bargs' defense in the post. He's actually, stunningly, really pretty good.
    5 minutes ago via TweetDeck

    Wow. Here's one. Bargnani held opponents to a .8 PPP in the post last season. Jeez. even against secondary post option, that's good. 10 minutes ago via TweetDeck
    http://twitter.com/HPbasketball
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    While impressive to see, I'm not surprised. His one on one D has become respectable. It is his role within a team defense and the idea he is the last line of defense to the bucket that, well, sucks - especially with the lack of perimeter defenders the team has had in recent seasons. A true rugged center is what he needs and unfortunately has never had. This is just my opinion from watching games and I really have nothing to back it up.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    While impressive to see, I'm not surprised. His one on one D has become respectable. It is his role within a team defense and the idea he is the last line of defense to the bucket that, well, sucks - especially with the lack of perimeter defenders the team has had in recent seasons. A true rugged center is what he needs and unfortunately has never had. This is just my opinion from watching games and I really have nothing to back it up.
    I agree

    What I find interesting here is

    1. You have some stats that show that Bargs is a pretty good one on one defender
    2. These stats are from last season when he played center on defense
    3. These stats support what a number of posters here have posted.
    3. Yet so many people keep saying that he should be playing PF and Raptors need a "legit" defensive center.

    I don't know if Bargs will ever be a good team defender but he is a pretty good one on one defender at the center position. If he moves the PF slot I think his one on one defense would not be as good because PF's are usually quicker than centers are.

    Again with his defense it always comes back to his really bad rebounding. Centers are not always a team's best rebounder. Move him to PF he sitll will be a rebounding liability.
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    I'm surprised that you haven't voiced opinions and thoughts, Buddah. I've been discussing this with Matt for the last hour.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    A true rugged center is what he needs and unfortunately has never had.
    Bargnani IS a center. What he needs is to be surrounded by rugged players. Amir Johnson at the 4 and Kleiza at the 3 isn't a bad start.

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    Quote Introcollapse wrote: View Post
    I'm surprised that you haven't voiced opinions and thoughts, Buddah. I've been discussing this with Matt for the last hour.
    Where have you been discussing it?

    If it is on Twitter under what names do you and Matt tweet?
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    Matt is @HPbasketball, haha. I'm @jpriemski

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    Bargnani is not a centre. He is a centre defensively, and a forward offensively. There are two sides of the basketball court that you have to consider. His post defense was pretty good last season it's just that people want to slap the "bad defender" label on the guy no matter what. Let's see how he does when Triano doesn't implement the worst possible defensive scheme in the league.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    I agree

    What I find interesting here is

    1. You have some stats that show that Bargs is a pretty good one on one defender
    2. These stats are from last season when he played center on defense
    3. These stats support what a number of posters here have posted.
    3. Yet so many people keep saying that he should be playing PF and Raptors need a "legit" defensive center.

    I don't know if Bargs will ever be a good team defender but he is a pretty good one on one defender at the center position. If he moves the PF slot I think his one on one defense would not be as good because PF's are usually quicker than centers are.

    Again with his defense it always comes back to his really bad rebounding. Centers are not always a team's best rebounder. Move him to PF he sitll will be a rebounding liability.
    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is not a centre. He is a centre defensively, and a forward offensively. There are two sides of the basketball court that you have to consider. His post defense was pretty good last season it's just that people want to slap the "bad defender" label on the guy no matter what. Let's see how he does when Triano doesn't implement the worst possible defensive scheme in the league.
    Maybe you didn't read the original post on this thread.
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Bargnani is not a centre. He is a centre defensively, and a forward offensively. There are two sides of the basketball court that you have to consider. His post defense was pretty good last season it's just that people want to slap the "bad defender" label on the guy no matter what. Let's see how he does when Triano doesn't implement the worst possible defensive scheme in the league.
    A player's position is usually the one he's best able to guard on the defensive end, and the one which offers him the best matchup offensively. If you consider both sides of the court, then there should be no doubt that Bargnani is a Center.

    Pegging him as a center on the defensive end is the tricky part and is where a legitimate debate exists. I'm surprised this isn't the area we're at odds over.

    However, labeling him a center on the offensive end couldn't be more obvious. The NBA is a game of matchups, and on the offensive end, Bargnani's best and biggest matchup advantage is against the opposing team's slow footed center. This match up offers him the best opportunity to use his two main weapons - his range and quickness. Who would you rather have matched up with Bargnani? Josh Smith or Dampier? It's pretty simple. He's a Center.

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    This is exactly why I think Bargs should play at the centre spot and NOT at power forward. I've said this before, even though his team defense is total "sheet" his post defense and offense are both pretty good. He used his strength and height well against other big men, and lead our team in blocks with 1.4 a game. That is more than Horford who is a great center, it is more than Shaq who even though is getting older, is still a huge guy. When you watch games when he defends, he uses his upper body strength very well, making sure players can't get passed him.

    Bargnani has to play at the centre because he's better on D against slower big men, and his offense is better and is more needed against big men too. Because he brings out the big guys, if he brings the Howards, the Noahs and the Horfords out to the free throw line, it gives space for other players on our team to get a chance at a basket inside... If he plays PF, who are usually pretty quick with their feet, well quicker than most centres, then the centre would stay down low, leaving very little room for our players to get an easy lay-in...

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    Uh, exactly where do these stats come from? Is it a credible source, or from some random guy in his basement?
    Last edited by golden; Sat Sep 18th, 2010 at 08:25 AM.

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    http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics...pic.php?t=2559

    Further proof that Bargs is one of the better one on one post defenders in the league. His help defense though...

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics...pic.php?t=2559

    Further proof that Bargs is one of the better one on one post defenders in the league. His help defense though...
    How good help defence is depends mainly from how much help is needed. Bargnani must improve as much as the whole team must improve

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics...pic.php?t=2559

    Further proof that Bargs is one of the better one on one post defenders in the league. His help defense though...
    I subscribed last night to Synergy Sports Tech which is where these numbers come from.

    I am not criticizing their accuracy however after looking at the numbers for about three hours or so I have come to the following preliminary conclusions about their numbers on defense.

    1. They are not so black and white
    2. They need some good understanding of what goes on on the court with a team's defense

    For example in shots allowed 20% of the shots shown taken against Amir were three point shots.

    Whereas with players like Pau, Dirk, KG, Bosh, Bargs and other bigs that percentage was a lot lower with some being as low as 10%.

    So how the hell does Amir have so many three point shots taken against him?

    Answer.

    Because he rotates and helps out on defense so much. It appears that the way that Synergy identifies shots taken against a player is by who he was closest to and attempting to guard at the time that the opposing team takes a shot.

    So when you combine Johnson's exceptionally high rate of three's allowed along with his exceptionally good team defense numbers on 82games.com and basketballvalue.com you can see from just the numbers how active Johnson is on the court sometimes too much so

    Of course anyone who watched Raptors games last season will already know this.

    As far as Bargnani goes, the numbers again confirm what we saw on the court. He is a good one on on post defender, mostly all against centers but as 82games.com and basketballvalue.com show Bargnani's team defense sucks rotten eggs just like Johnson's foul problem sucks rotten eggs.

    Of course if the other four defenders on the court were better defenders and the overall team defense was better Amir wouldn't have to rotate so much to run to cover shooters who were left wide open by the Raptors player who was supposed to be guarding that opposing player
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Sep 18th, 2010 at 11:42 AM.
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    Comparing post-up defense

    Player-----% of Time--Plays--PPP----FG%--%SF--%TO--% Score
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bargnani---37.4-------284---0.80---42.2---7.7---11.6-----41.9
    Johnson---19.5---------75---0.84---39.1--16.0---17.3----44.0
    Bosh------30.1--------191---0.84---43.6---5.8---10.5----43.5

    % of Time means the percent of shots given up by that player of all the shots he allowed by the player that he was guarding on that type of play. So 37.4% of the shots allowed by Bargnani were on post up plays and only 19.5% of the shots allowed by Johnson were on post up plays.

    Plays means shots allowed by that player; eg Bargnani, by the player that he was guarding at the time the opponent attempted a shot

    PPP means points allowed per possession by the player that he was guarding at the time that the shot was taken

    Player----Minutes Played--Post up Shots Allowed per Min Played
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Bargnani-------2,799---.101
    Johnson-------1,453----.052
    Bosh----------2,526----.076

    So from this we see

    1. Johnson and Bosh allowed more PPP than Bargnani when defending a post-up shot
    2. Johnson fouls about 1/6 of the time defending a post up shot - very very high
    3. Johnson also forces turnovers about 1/6 of the time defending a post up shot - very high
    4. Johnson had the fewest post up shots allowed per minute of court time by quite a bit. About half of what Bargnani had. This makes sense since Bargnani spends most of his time on defense in or near the low post whereas Johnson is all over the court. See my other post about 20% of the shots being taken against Johnson being spot up three point shots. An extremely high number against a Power Forward.
    5. Johnson also held his opponent on post-up shots to the lowest FG% of under 40%
    5. Bargnani was the best post-up defender of the three players when measured in terms of points allowed per post up play because Johnson commits too many damn fouls on post up plays and every other kind of play except spot up 3 point jump shots

    My guess is that Johnson's foul percentage and turnovers forced percentage were probably near the top among players in the league defending post up shots. Preliminary conclusion. Johnson needs to learn how to play tough post-up defense without fouling so much.

    Shots taken against per minute on the court

    Player--------Minutes---FGA Allowed--FGA Allowed Per Min on the court (1)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bargnani-------2,799---759----------.271
    Johnson-------1,453----385---------.265
    Bosh----------2,526----635---------.251

    (1) Taken by the player that was being guarded at the time of the shot.

    Sources: BasketballReference.com for the minutes and Synergy Sports Tech for everything else.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Sep 18th, 2010 at 12:33 PM.
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    Nice stats once again Buddha!

    Bargs clearly proved last year that he was stronger and he protected the paint, now he must improve the rest of his defense, cause he's sheet at everything else...

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Nice stats once again Buddha!

    Bargs clearly proved last year that he was stronger and he protected the paint, now he must improve the rest of his defense, cause he's sheet at everything else...
    Thanx
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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