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Thread: Keeping DeRozen means Moving Bargs

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Default Keeping DeRozen means Moving Bargs

    If you want a prayer of resigning DeRozen you can't subject him to putting his heart and soul in to a team which makes a guy like Bargs the focal point.

    It sends the wrong message.

    Busting your hump up and down the court and in practice to win games but to loose cause a guy wearing the same color jersey as you lets himself get out rebounded or scored on is something good players can't reconcile.

    So they vacate.

    Bargs has the talent to be a top flight big but his effort/interest is there about 60% of the time. He looks like a millionaire now. Some guys get rich and don't loose the fire - they live to compete.

    Bargs is not that guy - neither was Vince Carter... DeRozen Might be.

    Garnet Kobe Lebron are guys who play just as hard if they had a billion dollars as if they had one.

    Remember players are more loyal to each other than they are to a city. Bron Wade and Bosh would have played CHI MIA NY CLE as long as they were together.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    The Raptors have DeRozan on the books for another two and a half season. It's difficult for guys coming out of rookie deals to leave their current team(name me one who left his drafted team where they made a qualifying offer and matched anything put on the table). The new CBA is rumored to make it even more difficult for players to leave their current teams. He's going no where. There is no rush to make any drastic moves. Best to let Bargnani continue to develop and pad those stats. The longer he establishes how he's been scoring, the more he improves on D and the boards the more value he will have. Hell, there's a possibility he develops into a Dirk Nowitzki type player. MVP caliber play would add excellent value to this team.

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    If DeRozan is THAT guy (and I think we all hope he is), the organization doesn't do anything positive by handing him the reigns on a silver platter. It's possibly a best-case scenario that Bargnani continues to be a lightning rod for all criticism directed at the team, and DeRozan can work out the kinks in his game, learn to be a consistent performer, and become a leader at his own pace. If we we were to trade Bargnani right now, DeRozan would immediately become the guy who bears the weight of all expectations associated with the team, and unless the losing immediately stops (here's a hint: it won't), media and fans eventually rip into him. It's happened to every player who's been the face of this team at some point. If he is the guy to lead us to better results, the best thing the organization can do is give him the time he needs to grow and develop. And as Apollo mentioned, such a course also increases the likelihood that Bargnani increases his own value, either for this organization or for a trade.

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    If you want a prayer of resigning DeRozen you can't subject him to putting his heart and soul in to a team which makes a guy like Bargs the focal point.

    It sends the wrong message.

    Busting your hump up and down the court and in practice to win games but to loose cause a guy wearing the same color jersey as you lets himself get out rebounded or scored on is something good players can't reconcile.

    So they vacate.

    Bargs has the talent to be a top flight big but his effort/interest is there about 60% of the time. He looks like a millionaire now. Some guys get rich and don't loose the fire - they live to compete.

    Bargs is not that guy - neither was Vince Carter... DeRozen Might be.

    Garnet Kobe Lebron are guys who play just as hard if they had a billion dollars as if they had one.

    Remember players are more loyal to each other than they are to a city. Bron Wade and Bosh would have played CHI MIA NY CLE as long as they were together.
    Why would Ed Davis and Demar Derozan want to take the 3 year contract extension after the expiration of their rookie contracts for a team not committed to winning, no accountability and favoritism? Two more players leaving the Raptors in a few years if BC, MG and Bargs is till here. My two cents.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RAPT0RS's Avatar
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    Bargs just needs to be moved. Period.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    What purpose does it serve moving him right now? Are they ready to contend and he's the only weak link? Are they maximizing their asset by moving him right this instant? Do they even have a second string center fit for starting? How about a third fit for coming off the bench?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    If you consider Bargs to be 'the guy' or a franchise player for the next few seasons, then yes, absolutely, look to trade him because he isn't 'that guy'.

    If you consider Bargs to be a second or maybe even a third option player as you wait for current young players to develop/mature and hopefully draft another young future star then, no, you don't trade him. His contract reflects his worth - a second or third option.

    Rebuilds don't occur in half a season.

    It is priceless the threads that start when a guy is in a slump. None of these threads were here from mid-Dec to mid-Jan.

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    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What purpose does it serve moving him right now? Are they ready to contend and he's the only weak link? Are they maximizing their asset by moving him right this instant? Do they even have a second string center fit for starting? How about a third fit for coming off the bench?
    I don't think his value can be any higher than it currently is. Averaging under around 21.5 points a game, he's only 25 years of age so teams know that this guy, under the right system, can do pretty well, while continually improving whatever game he has.

    Either way, the guy isn't even close to being a franchise player, and I don't even think he can work as a second fiddle, regardless of who he's playing with. So why are we keeping him? we aren't making it to the playoffs anytime soon so keeping him isn't going to raise the price tag on him. Trade him now for whatever young (but talented) players you can get, as well as trying to steal 1st round picks.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    There's no more "slump" slack for Bargnani. He's never shown us anything that would intimate that he has the potential to be a first or even second option. David Anderson probably could have put up the same numbers in the same situation. (I'm not complimenting Anderson)

    My hope is that BC is letting Andrea pad his PPG (a la Mike James) on a bad team so as to up his trade value for next year. Problem is, he can't even do that well.

    (p.s. only Pollyanna wouldn't bash Bargnani after 5 years of waste)

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What purpose does it serve moving him right now? Are they ready to contend and he's the only weak link? Are they maximizing their asset by moving him right this instant? Do they even have a second string center fit for starting? How about a third fit for coming off the bench?
    If there is a right offer why not? He's young and can score. His contract is also manageable despite the uncertain CBA landscape. His knees concern me a bit (although premature at this point). However, the bigger issue is his impact in this team. The team is full of young players that require true veteran leadership. None of which Bargs cannot provide. He plays heavy minutes and takes the most shot in most games. I think that's a lot of "drain" on the rest of the team. The only way I can see him staying is if they manage to get a real center at the deadline or through future signings. The problem with this option though is that it really clogs the front court in an attempt to finding Bargs the appropriate front court partner. How does this mean to the development of Davis and Johnson? There's way too much accommodations being made for one guy.

    PS> Many people will suggest that the reasons I stated above is good enough for the Raps to keep him. However, his impact on this team is a bigger issue and something that cannot be ignored.
    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Mon Jan 31st, 2011 at 06:16 PM.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If you consider Bargs to be 'the guy' or a franchise player for the next few seasons, then yes, absolutely, look to trade him because he isn't 'that guy'.

    If you consider Bargs to be a second or maybe even a third option player as you wait for current young players to develop/mature and hopefully draft another young future star then, no, you don't trade him. His contract reflects his worth - a second or third option.

    Rebuilds don't occur in half a season.

    It is priceless the threads that start when a guy is in a slump. None of these threads were here from mid-Dec to mid-Jan.
    but how can you WIN when your center is so weak ?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    but how can you WIN when your center is so weak ?
    How did the Bulls win with such weak PG's and without a dominant big man?

    How did the Pistons '04 team win without a superstar?

    Answer: You build a team around what you have - defeciencies and all. I'm not saying winning with Bargnani is possible - but I don't think it is impossible either.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    How did the Bulls win with such weak PG's and without a dominant big man?

    How did the Pistons '04 team win without a superstar?

    Answer: You build a team around what you have - defeciencies and all. I'm not saying winning with Bargnani is possible - but I don't think it is impossible either.
    i didnt say anything about the pistons, but since you mentioned it lets break down their roster... again i didnt say you need a superstar so please dont use your usual tactics of making stuff up...

    the pistons had

    chauncey
    rip
    tay
    sheed
    ben

    can you name any of these guys who are weak defenders please ?

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    How did the Bulls win with such weak PG's and without a dominant big man?

    How did the Pistons '04 team win without a superstar?

    Answer: You build a team around what you have - defeciencies and all. I'm not saying winning with Bargnani is possible - but I don't think it is impossible either.
    matt52, again please show me where i said you need a DOMINANT big man ? where on earth did i say that ?

    i said you cant have a weak centre, and to be more clear i was talking about defensively....

    but please show me where i said you need a superstar or dominant big man which is what you claimed i said.

    there's ways to make arguments and then there's your way which wouldn't even pass for a 4 year old.

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    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    but how can you WIN when your center is so weak ?
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    How did the Bulls win with such weak PG's and without a dominant big man?

    How did the Pistons '04 team win without a superstar?

    Answer: You build a team around what you have - defeciencies and all. I'm not saying winning with Bargnani is possible - but I don't think it is impossible either.
    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    i didnt say anything about the pistons, but since you mentioned it lets break down their roster... again i didnt say you need a superstar so please dont use your usual tactics of making stuff up...

    the pistons had

    chauncey
    rip
    tay
    sheed
    ben

    can you name any of these guys who are weak defenders please ?
    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    matt52, again please show me where i said you need a DOMINANT big man ? where on earth did i say that ?

    i said you cant have a weak centre, and to be more clear i was talking about defensively....

    but please show me where i said you need a superstar or dominant big man which is what you claimed i said.

    there's ways to make arguments and then there's your way which wouldn't even pass for a 4 year old.
    how do you read this and make up that i said you need a superstar or dominant big man ?

    the funny thing is, the pistons centre was the opposite of bargnani and they won a championship.'

    a guy that just played defense and grabbed boards. didnt make any 3's, didnt take any possesions off, and was 3 inches shorter. yet they still won ? why ? umm i dont know maybe cuz they played D.

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    Dont trade the guy just move him to the bench where he belongs as a sixth man. He played great coming off the bench in his first and second seasons.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Best to let Bargnani continue to develop and pad those stats. The longer he establishes how he's been scoring, the more he improves on D and the boards the more value he will have. Hell, there's a possibility he develops into a Dirk Nowitzki type player. MVP caliber play would add excellent value to this team.
    wont happen cant happen. To think he will become anything more than the offensive side of Dirk 50 times a season is a serious lack of judgment. Physically he does have the tools but does not have the desire. The pattern is clear by now.

    Having him 'develop' and 'pad his stats' is fundamentally wrong for a team which wants to become and Atlanta or OKC
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    Why would Ed Davis and Demar Derozan want to take the 3 year contract extension after the expiration of their rookie contracts for a team not committed to winning, no accountability and favoritism? Two more players leaving the Raptors in a few years if BC, MG and Bargs is till here. My two cents.
    I agree - it has to be nauseating to set up so many offensive sets and run plays for a guy (bargs) who takes so many nights off. And yet is not held accountable. There is a two tiered level of excellence require 1) for bargs 2) for everyone else... big time C'ya from those guys if he remains.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    you don't sell when the value is low... or else you end up with a pair of williamses and a player who refuses to even show up.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote karim_nasir wrote: View Post
    matt52, again please show me where i said you need a DOMINANT big man ? where on earth did i say that ?

    i said you cant have a weak centre, and to be more clear i was talking about defensively....

    but please show me where i said you need a superstar or dominant big man which is what you claimed i said.

    there's ways to make arguments and then there's your way which wouldn't even pass for a 4 year old.
    Seems like you are a little impulsive on the replies. My apologies for the delay but life sometimes gets in the way.

    Also, when your arguments infer someone is a 4 year old, credibility is lost.

    You have a number of replies which I will not get to.

    The Piston and Bulls made a great teams around who they had and did so in unconventional or non-traditional ways (Bulls - no great PG, no great C and Pistons - no superstar player). At no point did I say you said anything about PG's or C's. I answered you question with another question but I gave the answer. If you can't connect the dots, I will work on clarification in the future.

    My point with the Raps is they could win with Bargnani depending on who his teammates are and what team they have. Obviously they won't right now. But in time they could. He was a member of an Atlantic division championship team - no reason why it couldn't happen again.

    The fact remains this is a rebuild and trading Bargnani now hardly makes any sense given his BYC status and his current slump.

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