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Thread: Live By The Sword, Die By The Sword

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Live By The Sword, Die By The Sword

    The Raptors are 12-14 when he scores 18 or more points and 0-16 when he's held to 17 or fewer.
    "Andrea is a little bit out of sync," Triano told the NBA's official website. "Sometimes when he has a shot he doesn't take it. He's thinking about it too much."
    Source: Sportsnet.ca

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    They need to do a better job of getting AB the ball in good positions. Jose looks him off way too much, so does JB. Half the time they throw him the ball on the perimeter with like 2 secs left on the shot clock.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    The Raptors are 12-14 when he scores 18 or more points and 0-16 when he's held to 17 or fewer.
    WOW... thats a pretty amazing statistic actually.

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Yes, given his role, the team needs Bargnani to score in order to have a chance of winning. (Because we're sure as hell not benching him when he isn't and not providing a shred of defense/rebounding to compensate.) I think that it's more of a testament to how inconsistent his (efficient) offense is though.
    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    They need to do a better job of getting AB the ball in good positions. Jose looks him off way too much, so does JB. Half the time they throw him the ball on the perimeter with like 2 secs left on the shot clock.
    That's not true at all, even with Calderon's habit of over-dribbling, and Bayless' tunnel-vision and picking up his dribble too early.

    Bargnani not getting the ball in good positions is on him. His comfort zone is out on the perimeter, but his would be most effective in the corner where Bosh got the ball. Whenever tries to post up, he gets pushed out way too far as well. In contrast to Amir who gets frequently gets good, deep position in the post, and cuts to the basket for easy passes from Calderon for example.

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    Further evidence that, when he's not scoring, he's a complete liability. If Bargnani were able to do something other than score, the team would not be as negatively effected by his bad games.
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Yes, given his role, the team needs Bargnani to score in order to have a chance of winning. (Because we're sure as hell not benching him when he isn't and not providing a shred of defense/rebounding to compensate.) I think that it's more of a testament to how inconsistent his (efficient) offense is though.

    That's not true at all, even with Calderon's habit of over-dribbling, and Bayless' tunnel-vision and picking up his dribble too early.

    Bargnani not getting the ball in good positions is on him. His comfort zone is out on the perimeter, but his would be most effective in the corner where Bosh got the ball. Whenever tries to post up, he gets pushed out way too far as well. In contrast to Amir who gets frequently gets good, deep position in the post, and cuts to the basket for easy passes from Calderon for example.
    Incorrect. I have seen every raptors game. They look him off in deep post position all the time.

    Regarding Amir, that is his one and only move, if he is able to conver the lay in to points and not turn it over.

    I love how you guys say his effort is inconsistent or lax. Apparently to you it's easy to score 15 to 30 points in the NBA. Doesn't take much effort I guess, must just happen magically.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Further evidence that, when he's not scoring, he's a complete liability. If Bargnani were able to do something other than score, the team would not be as negatively effected by his bad games.
    +1

    That is his problem - the offense, unfortunately, sparks everything else. A rough shooting night shouldn't affect the other side of the ball.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Incorrect. I have seen every raptors game. They look him off in deep post position all the time.

    Regarding Amir, that is his one and only move, if he is able to conver the lay in to points and not turn it over.

    I love how you guys say his effort is inconsistent or lax. Apparently to you it's easy to score 15 to 30 points in the NBA. Doesn't take much effort I guess, must just happen magically.
    It doesn't happen magically. You just need 35+ minutes of GUARANTEED playing time and jacking 20+ field goal attempts every game. If any player is given this much scoring slack, they too can average 15-30 points. Being efficient however, now that's difficult.
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    Instead of looking at how many points Andrea needs to make the raptors win we need to focus on how many points he needs to prevent to make the raptors win. The problem is too many people focus offense, If you ask me the raptors don't have a problem scoring it's just they allow too many points for them to stand a chance. In my opinion you need to move Andrea to the 4 and get a defensive minded 5. The raptors don't need 20 points from there center they need 10 rebounds and 2 blocks if they get that out of there center I could care less if he scores 0.5 ppg

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    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Well of course, he's our main option on offence. This stat also proves how inconsistent this man can be. 17 points and less in 16 games?! if our top guy was rebounding the ball on most nights, that stat would be less exaggerated. But then again we're talking about Bargnani.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    They need to do a better job of getting AB the ball in good positions. Jose looks him off way too much, so does JB. Half the time they throw him the ball on the perimeter with like 2 secs left on the shot clock.
    So, how does someone average 18.1 FG attempts (8th in the league) if everyone "looks him off".
    13% of his shots occur with 4 or less seconds on the clock.

    Never let facts stand in the way of a good argument.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Incorrect. I have seen every raptors game. They look him off in deep post position all the time.

    Regarding Amir, that is his one and only move, if he is able to conver the lay in to points and not turn it over.

    I love how you guys say his effort is inconsistent or lax. Apparently to you it's easy to score 15 to 30 points in the NBA. Doesn't take much effort I guess, must just happen magically.
    1. Deep post position? Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Wait, I'm not done.

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay, I'm done, my sides hurt.

    2. So if Amir can roll after setting a screen and manage to lay the ball in, why do we almost never, ever see this from Bargs? Surely he's capable of the same thing? Guess he'd rather roll and shoot that deep 2.

    3. Dorrel Wright averages 16.7 ppg this year, Nick Young is getting 17ppg, Stephen Jackson gets 18 in Charlotte. It's not that hard to average 20 when you get to jack up the shots on a bad team. See: Rose, Jalen. Or James, Mike. MoPete once averaged 16.8 for the Raps, Rafer Alston 14.8, Tracey Murray 17.3. Veshon Lenard 16.8 too. See where this is going?

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    1. Deep post position? Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Wait, I'm not done.

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay, I'm done, my sides hurt.

    2. So if Amir can roll after setting a screen and manage to lay the ball in, why do we almost never, ever see this from Bargs? Surely he's capable of the same thing? Guess he'd rather roll and shoot that deep 2.

    3. Dorrel Wright averages 16.7 ppg this year, Nick Young is getting 17ppg, Stephen Jackson gets 18 in Charlotte. It's not that hard to average 20 when you get to jack up the shots on a bad team. See: Rose, Jalen. Or James, Mike. MoPete once averaged 16.8 for the Raps, Rafer Alston 14.8, Tracey Murray 17.3. Veshon Lenard 16.8 too. See where this is going?
    Ugh. Win.

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    Not to go all Charles Barkley on this... but I am so disappointed in Andrea Bargnani. Not that he had a couple of bad games, because that happens. But... It's his mentality and the vibe he gives off. Look, people kill Amare Stoudamire (rightfully so) for the fact that he doesn't rebound well for the freak of nature he is, but the fact that he averages a full 4 rebounds MORE than Andrea is really, really sad. It's not his fault. Toronto didn't have to draft him first and they didn't have to hand him a $50 Million extension. He did what any sane person would do and say yes. And it's a little unfair that The GM and the team have kind of hyped him as the face of the franchise when Bosh left when he's either not ready or doesn't care to be. But all the same, as a fan of this team, I'm just thoroughly disappointed in him.

    It's great that people defend him. It's what fans are supposed to do. But this, really, is who he is. Forget the fact that he's 25. This is basketball and the great thing about the NBA and this game is that you can figure out (barring some horrible injury) how a player's going to play out. For every Chauncey Billups, there are 10 Harold Miners. If he had any greatness to him, we would have seen it by now. It makes it all the more disappointing when Aldridge, after getting signed to a ridiculous contract, is at least trying to justify it and carrying a decimated Portland team to respectability. But as wonderful a scorer he is (and even THAT'S a little overrated) he just doesn't do anything at this point to make u think he will ever get it. He once admitted to NBA.com that it's laziness holding him back, and let's face it, if this was Chris Bosh saying it, there would be jerseys being burned right now. He'll forever be "potential", every once in a while hanging 34 points on a team with a variety of jumpers and post moves and everyone will get excited about him putting it together. Just like they said about Charlie Villenueva. Or Mehmet Okur. Or Andrei Kirilenko.

    Bargnani will have a long career in this league. He's a 7 footer who has great range. In a one on one game, I have no doubt he would dust the likes of Carlos Boozer, Joakim Noah, hell, even Dwight Howard. But I keep remembering how Michael Grange used to talk about TJ Ford taking Calderon each practice to the woodshed during drills and we've seen how their careers have turned out. To build a team, there isn't anyone (right now) that would take Bargnani over those 3. And really, as a fan of this team and sport, it's just sad.

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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    1. Deep post position? Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Wait, I'm not done.

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Okay, I'm done, my sides hurt.

    2. So if Amir can roll after setting a screen and manage to lay the ball in, why do we almost never, ever see this from Bargs? Surely he's capable of the same thing? Guess he'd rather roll and shoot that deep 2.

    3. Dorrel Wright averages 16.7 ppg this year, Nick Young is getting 17ppg, Stephen Jackson gets 18 in Charlotte. It's not that hard to average 20 when you get to jack up the shots on a bad team. See: Rose, Jalen. Or James, Mike. MoPete once averaged 16.8 for the Raps, Rafer Alston 14.8, Tracey Murray 17.3. Veshon Lenard 16.8 too. See where this is going?
    Don't ever compare Amir and Bargs. That is like comparing heineken and schlitz. Amir has very very very little offense, poor foul shooter, no perimeter game, very bad man defender, and bad help defender.

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    It doesn't happen magically. You just need 35+ minutes of GUARANTEED playing time and jacking 20+ field goal attempts every game. If any player is given this much scoring slack, they too can average 15-30 points. Being efficient however, now that's difficult.
    Right, as if you've played in the NBA. "Anybody" can score. OK buddy. Did you even play high school ball? i doubt it.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Don't ever compare Amir and Bargs. That is like comparing heineken and schlitz. Amir has very very very little offense, poor foul shooter, no perimeter game, very bad man defender, and bad help defender.
    Very little offense? Amir's post game is much better than Andrea's. His FG% is 3rd in the NBA. As for poor foul shooter - he's shooting 80% on the season. I would hardly consider that poor.
    He's probably one of the best defenders on this team - if not THE best defender on the team. He plays with a lot of heart and hustle and does not give up on plays.
    I stick up a lot for Andrea, but shit, the past couple of games, he's looked really horrible. There's a reason why Triano sat him on the bench for extended periods in favour of Davis last night.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Right, as if you've played in the NBA. "Anybody" can score. OK buddy. Did you even play high school ball? i doubt it.
    He averages close to 22 shots per game. If you make less than 50 % of them, you can still averge 20 ppg.

    Your first comment and your second comment have no correlation to each other. What does BOS having or having not played HS ball have to do with it?

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Don't ever compare Amir and Bargs. That is like comparing heineken and schlitz. Amir has very very very little offense, poor foul shooter, no perimeter game, very bad man defender, and bad help defender.
    Seriously, do you even watch the games?

    Whether you want to admit it or not, finishing around the basket is as much of a skill as hitting the outside jumper, and Amir excels at that. In fact he KILLS Bargs at finishing around the rim, despite having fewer of his buckets in that area assisted on (all this from 82games). Helps that he gets his shot blocked in there a lot less too. So again, if finishing at the rim isn't something that requires skill, why do we rarely see Bargs taking the ball inside or rolling off of picks?

    As for poor foul shooter, it's .817 to .795. Not a big difference.

    No perimeter game? Mostly true, though he's getting much better at hitting the jumper when defenses sag. In fact his eFG& is only .32 behind Bargs in that area.

    And lastly as for no help or man defense, well, by just about every statistical measure you're just flat out wrong on that one, and actually watching a game or two should confirm it for you.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    Seriously, do you even watch the games?

    Whether you want to admit it or not, finishing around the basket is as much of a skill as hitting the outside jumper, and Amir excels at that. In fact he KILLS Bargs at finishing around the rim, despite having fewer of his buckets in that area assisted on (all this from 82games). Helps that he gets his shot blocked in there a lot less too. So again, if finishing at the rim isn't something that requires skill, why do we rarely see Bargs taking the ball inside or rolling off of picks?

    As for poor foul shooter, it's .817 to .795. Not a big difference.

    No perimeter game? Mostly true, though he's getting much better at hitting the jumper when defenses sag. In fact his eFG& is only .32 behind Bargs in that area.

    And lastly as for no help or man defense, well, by just about every statistical measure you're just flat out wrong on that one, and actually watching a game or two should confirm it for you.
    Fully agree.
    Way too critical of Amir's game, Multi.
    He's our BEST inside presense from both sides of the floor. Though their games are different, I'm not sure its fair to sell Amir quite as short as you have.

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