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Thread: Noah Deal Shows Value of Amir Signing

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Default Noah Deal Shows Value of Amir Signing

    The Chicago Tribune reported the deal is worth about US$11 million annually with incentives that could take it higher.

    The Globe And Mail
    Lets compare and keep in mind That Amir is 2 years younger and his contract is 1/2 yes HALF the cost of Noah's Approx 5.5 mill per

    Amir 6 pts. 5 rebs 1 blk 17.7 mpg (of course playing mostly behind all star bosh)
    Noah 11pts 11 reb 1.5 blk 30mpg

    bigger role more confidence and taking fewer fouls will show the value of this deal. Much of what Amir does to help raps does not even show up in stat line yet. He is their best one on one defender and plays very hard.

    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    I'd take Noah at 11Mil over Amir at 5 any day. Noah is not just about stats. His hussle, his energy, his rebounding and defense, he plays it all out every night, and his stats surely don't do him justice. Noah is second best center in the league behind Dwight IMO.

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    Remember when Noah did his little dance after winning the NCAAs and everybody thought he was a clown?



    I always thought he had an awesome attitude.
    And look at him now.
    One of the top 5 centers in the league fo sho.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Based upon last season's play by Noah and Johnson and the players on the their respective rosters the Hainline Player Swap Calculator shows that if the Raptors had traded Johnson for Noah at the beginning of last season they would have lost 4 games than they actually did.

    The Bulls on the other hand would have won 4 more games last season.

    The actual numbers are -3.8 for the Raptors and +4.2 for the Bulls. The Calculator takes into account the other players on the team. So Amir would have fit a little better in with the Bulls lineup than he did with the Raptors.

    Hainline PSC
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    I'd take Noah at 11Mil over Amir at 5 any day. Noah is not just about stats. His hussle, his energy, his rebounding and defense, he plays it all out every night, and his stats surely don't do him justice. Noah is second best center in the league behind Dwight IMO.
    Amir plays with energy and hussle as well. Noah and his crap for 11M. No way. Second best centre? Hell no. I like the Amir signing, I think Chicago caved when they shouldn't have. Another budding KMart here.

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    Apples & oranges. Noah plays centre (mostly) while Amir plays pf (mostly). In this league a centre with Noah's skills and intimidation is much more valuable. And the Bulls know it. They refused to deal Noah for Carmelo.

    Would anyone trade Bargs for Noah straightup ? Thats a better comparative...position and salary.
    Last edited by Bendit; Mon Oct 4th, 2010 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    Amir plays with energy and hussle as well. Noah and his crap for 11M. No way. Second best centre? Hell no. I like the Amir signing, I think Chicago caved when they shouldn't have. Another budding KMart here.
    It seems to me, ye ole conspiracy guy here that the Bulls fell victim to the ESPN hype machine. ESPN/ABC and even TNT love Noah. He was on national TV tons of times last season. The Raptors got on NBA/TV less than a handful of times.

    Noah and his agent could demand more because ESPN/ABC's hype of Noah created more value for him than say if he had played for the Raptors last season.

    The networks have loved him since his Florida school beat the Bruins in the NCAA tournament a few years back.

    Is he worth $11 million a year?

    He created 6.2 Win Shares last season for a cost per Win Share of about $1.8 million.

    Johnson created 4.5 Win Shares last season so he will cost the Raptors about $1.1 million per Win Share created based upon last season's numbers.

    Of course there is the "Revenue Value" amount. There is not doubt that Noah brings in a lot more revenue for the Bulls team than Johnson does for the Raptors. However, I have no way of quantifying that part of the equation.

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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    Amir plays with energy and hussle as well. Noah and his crap for 11M. No way. Second best centre? Hell no. I like the Amir signing, I think Chicago caved when they shouldn't have. Another budding KMart here.
    Amir is replaceable, Noah isn't. And which center is better than Noah? Anyways you can't look into stats here, how he affects the game, how he improves the Bulls. Finding a center like Noah takes decades, a decent, rebounding PF, nearly every draft has one.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Based upon last season's play by Noah and Johnson and the players on the their respective rosters the Hainline Player Swap Calculator shows that if the Raptors had traded Johnson for Noah at the beginning of last season they would have lost 4 games than they actually did.

    The Bulls on the other hand would have won 4 more games last season.

    The actual numbers are -3.8 for the Raptors and +4.2 for the Bulls. The Calculator takes into account the other players on the team. So Amir would have fit a little better in with the Bulls lineup than he did with the Raptors.

    Hainline PSC
    I don't think it would have fared that way in reality. Noah is a far greater and more important player than Amir will ever be. Bulls wouldn't be a play-off team without Noah.

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    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Thats a little pricey I think but who are we to judge? Bargs is being paid an average of 10 million over the next 5 years, so I guess in comparison you could say its a good deal.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Amir is replaceable, Noah isn't. And which center is better than Noah? Anyways you can't look into stats here, how he affects the game, how he improves the Bulls. Finding a center like Noah takes decades, a decent, rebounding PF, nearly every draft has one.
    You have been brain washed by the ESPN/ABC hype machine.

    Suggested method for correction:

    Avoid listening to ESPN/ABC basketball related broadcasts and shows and avoid ESPN's basketball website for a full season.

    You will then start to see NCAA and NBA basketball from its true perspective. You will become emancipated and set free
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You have been brain washed by the ESPN/ABC hype machine.

    Suggested method for correction:

    Avoid listening to ESPN/ABC basketball related broadcasts and shows and avoid ESPN's basketball website for a full season.

    You will then start to see NCAA and NBA basketball from its true perspective. You will become emancipated and set free
    C'mon, Noah is AT LEAST double the player Amir is. Noah can defend extremely well, can rebound extremely well, can block shots extremely well, is pretty quick for a 7 footer, plays his heart out every game. Has great experience (Gators + Bulls), has actually played an entire basketball game.
    If we could trade our first round pick, Miami's first round pick, Amir and Reggie for Noah would you do it?

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    C'mon, Noah is AT LEAST double the player Amir is. Noah can defend extremely well, can rebound extremely well, can block shots extremely well, is pretty quick for a 7 footer, plays his heart out every game. Has great experience (Gators + Bulls), has actually played an entire basketball game.
    If we could trade our first round pick, Miami's first round pick, Amir and Reggie for Noah would you do it?
    Good try but what your trade really amounts to is Amir for Noah.

    Would I do it?

    Not at this point

    If Amir craps out in 10-11, which is always possible then I will say at the end of 10-11 that I would do it.

    If on the other hand Amir "Mans Up" in 10-11 then there is no way I would trade him for Noah.

    We shall see.

    Got to give it all 82 regular season games.

    I won't count the playoffs, say what? because Noah has more playoff experience at this time.
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    He created 6.2 Win Shares last season for a cost per Win Share of about $1.8 million.

    Johnson created 4.5 Win Shares last season so he will cost the Raptors about $1.1 million per Win Share created based upon last season's numbers.
    I'm no fan of Mark Cuban, but the guy owns a team and is known to be rather quantitative with certain things. I won't pretend to know more than he does about running an NBA team, or even evaluating NBA talent. Therefore, here is what I think is a pretty definitive last word on the value of "stats". In case anyone doesn't care to link through, when viewed independently of chemistry and coaching they're useless and pretty much meaningless.

    http://blogmaverick.com/2010/10/03/b...og+maverick%29

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    "He created 6.2 Win Shares last season for a cost per Win Share of about $1.8 million.

    Johnson created 4.5 Win Shares last season so he will cost the Raptors about $1.1 million per Win Share created based upon last season's numbers."
    -------

    ha ha this is such ludicrous stat crunching bullsh*t

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    I'd take Noah at 11Mil over Amir at 5 any day. Noah is not just about stats. His hussle, his energy, his rebounding and defense, he plays it all out every night, and his stats surely don't do him justice. Noah is second best center in the league behind Dwight IMO.
    I second that. You can't just break it down to stats. Noah brings leadership, toughness and intensity on a level that Amir doesn't match. Not even close.

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    Cuban is not a stats guy.

    He a people person and money maker.

    A lot of these people, and I mean that positively, usually do not think very highly of bean counters, even the advanced ones

    I have read enough about the accuracy and usefulness of Advanced Stats; i.e. Metrics in both baseball and basketball to know that the science of Sports Metrics in these two sports is accepted by the majority of owners and management people in these respective sports on the professional level.

    Basketball is further behind the baseball is in this. Whereas every Major League Baseball team uses what is called Sabermetrics" by the baseball people only a majority of professional basketball teams, including the Raptors use it at this time.

    Sabermetics is very widely accepted among serious baseball fans as a valid aid in determining the worth of and projected value of players. Very few basketball fans at this point accept the use of Advanced Stats as a valid worth determiner. It will all change over time as the fan base becomes for informed of and knowledgeable in the use of the numbers.

    if you go to the bottom of the Wiki article on Sabermetrics you will see that the article references


    * Win Shares, by Bill James
    Sabermetrics



    Win Shares by Bill James

    James originally created the concept of Win Shares for baseball. It has since been modified and adopted for basketball.

    A NBA.com blogger provides a nice explanation of what a WS actually is. Here is an excerpt:

    "In other words, a Win Share is kind of like baseball's VORP stat...it relies on the assumption that efficiency is the key to wins, looks at a player's offensive efficiency compared to the league average, a player's defensive efficiency compared to the league average, corrects for minutes played, then adds up the corresponding Offensive and Defensive Win Shares to get one number that estimates how many wins that player was worth."
    http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/i...statspeak.html
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Mon Oct 4th, 2010 at 01:32 PM.
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
    Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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    As much as I like Amir...pause....I think that Noah is the far better player and has proven that so far on the court as being the more consistent player. I still remember Noah locking up Bosh with the game on the line not to mention that he plays all out every game. I used to think that Noah would get pushed around at center in the NBA but he more than holds his own even against Big Shaq.

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Lets compare and keep in mind That Amir is 2 years younger and his contract is 1/2 yes HALF the cost of Noah's Approx 5.5 mill per
    Amir is also half the player Noah is.

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    one season.

    one season friends. his new contract is based on one season of double-double
    isn't it more a contract based on potential... just like my man Amir?

    can he regularly go to Timmy's and order up a double-double for the next 5 years?
    we shall see. This also means they are investing over 24 mil per year on just their starting front court
    Last edited by Jaworski; Mon Oct 4th, 2010 at 03:15 PM.

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