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Thread: Noah Deal Shows Value of Amir Signing

  1. #21
    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Don't really have an issue with Amir's contract. Amir is at least half a good a player as Noah is so his contract is reasonable when compared to Noah's.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Don't really have an issue with Amir's contract. Amir is at least half a good a player as Noah is so his contract is reasonable when compared to Noah's.
    +1

    Amir's offensive game is more rounded and polished than Noah's though Amir still needs to improve his offense with an expanded list of high efficiency shots. It would be nice for him to develop a spot-up jump shot, but I would be happy if this season he added a reliable jump hook and a reliable post up jump shot.

    Noah is a better rebounder and a better defender.

    Noah is definitely not twice as good as Amir regarding what they bring on the floor. However, Noah is a lot bigger revenue generator for the Bulls franchise than Amir is for the Raptors franchise so it seems to me that that has to be factored in in terms of total value to their respective franchises.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Cuban is not a stats guy.

    He a people person and money maker.

    A lot of these people, and I mean that positively, usually do not think very highly of bean counters, even the advanced ones

    Basketball is further behind the baseball is in this. Whereas every Major League Baseball team uses what is called Sabermetrics" by the baseball people only a majority of professional basketball teams, including the Raptors use it at this time.
    I was being a bit cheeky, but I agree with what I view as the key point that stats without any context are just numbers. I know a number of teams use them in conjunction with many, many other means of evaluation. You may have seen the Michael Lewis article in the NY Times magazine last year that spent some time with Daryl Morey and discussed how they would have Battier cover Bryant - where to deny him the ball and where to let him have it based on Bryan'ts shooting percentage from various spots on the floor. That, I think, is a very wise application of relevant and meaningful information.

    I also think the nature of baseball lends itself more to pure statistical evaluation than basketball as it involves more isloated situations. Kind of like free throw percentages tell you whether you're a good free throw shooter.

  4. #24
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    I would like to comment on the Amir Fouling thing...THere is no way, he is going to put up as much fouls as last year. First of all he is going to be more tactical and will make improvments, but if you think Colangelo isn't going to be sending video tape and lobbying the refs to protect his starter you're mistaken. I'm high on Amir and would take his salary at 50% any day over Noah...

  5. #25
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Jaworski wrote: View Post
    one season.

    one season friends. his new contract is based on one season of double-double
    isn't it more a contract based on potential... just like my man Amir?

    can he regularly go to Timmy's and order up a double-double for the next 5 years?
    we shall see. This also means they are investing over 24 mil per year on just their starting front court
    I difference is Noah got paid for what he showed he can do. Johnson got paid for what the Raptors hope he can do.

  6. #26
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    C'mon, Noah is AT LEAST double the player Amir is. Noah can defend extremely well, can rebound extremely well, can block shots extremely well, is pretty quick for a 7 footer, plays his heart out every game. Has great experience (Gators + Bulls), has actually played an entire basketball game.
    If we could trade our first round pick, Miami's first round pick, Amir and Reggie for Noah would you do it?
    no way in hell!

    Give amir 2 more years to catch up to Noah Physically and you will see how under paid he is.
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  7. #27
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    C'mon, Noah is AT LEAST double the player Amir is. Noah can defend extremely well, can rebound extremely well, can block shots extremely well, is pretty quick for a 7 footer, plays his heart out every game. Has great experience (Gators + Bulls), has actually played an entire basketball game.
    If we could trade our first round pick, Miami's first round pick, Amir and Reggie for Noah would you do it?
    lol no. Not unless that Raptors magically make the palyoffs.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter Edgar's Avatar
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    Noah is a great guy to have on your team but he's Brad Miller in his prime minus the attitude and jumpshot. If you can't see Noah as atleast moderately over-hyped, you're blind. He's a great glue guy who works harder than anyone else. Thats it. If you had asked me a month ago what he'd get signed for I would have guessed 9/per.
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  9. #29
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    Although Noah is overhyped, he's a baller, straight up. Take your half baked metrics and all your number crunching and put them to the side. Now go watch and play basketball. Like Apollo said: Noah is getting paid for what he does. Amir is all potential. Saying Amir has a polished or even a well rounded offense compared to Noah is meaningless as neither has much to offer offensively. What Noah does offer is a tenacious, intelligent, talented defensive presence. It's not to say he has more heart or hustle than Amir, who I'm a big fan of, but Noah is a guy who'll D up the CB4's of the league with real success and anchor your team deep into the playoffs. Amir just isn't as good. Watch the games it's easy to see.

  10. #30
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    I agree with jaworski. One season. 11mil is foolish. I love the people on here saying that amir is overpaid and then Noah is twice the player and therefore worth it. By the many arguments on here Noah should get six mil. Just gotta laugh. Just plain and simple not worth it. But hey... Not my money.

  11. #31
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    I agree with jaworski. One season. 11mil is foolish. I love the people on here saying that amir is overpaid and then Noah is twice the player and therefore worth it. By the many arguments on here Noah should get six mil. Just gotta laugh. Just plain and simple not worth it. But hey... Not my money.
    Noah is more than double the player Amir is. And it was more vital to Chicago to splash out money on Noah, as he was key to their playoff success. Whilst Amir isn't vital to this team, if we didn't have him we could just sign another PF which will anyways not really be of such great impact. The main difference is, we didn't have to sign Amir for so much (but I'm fine with his contract, I think he'll be above-average) whilst Chicago HAD to sign Noah for that much.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Rookie pistol pete's Avatar
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    Noah is extremely overhyped, just like his father was extremely overhyped. Not that Joakim isn't good, and not that Jannick wasn't good (he once won Roland Garros, and I think France won the Davis cup with him). They just aren't the excellence, but they always have been loved by the media. On the other hand, Amir is underhyped (with the obvious exception of Buddahfan). I'd swap them, but I don't think it could determine the team's success.

  13. #33
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    Quote pistol pete wrote: View Post
    Noah is extremely overhyped, just like his father was extremely overhyped. Not that Joakim isn't good, and not that Jannick wasn't good (he once won Roland Garros, and I think France won the Davis cup with him). They just aren't the excellence, but they always have been loved by the media. On the other hand, Amir is underhyped (with the obvious exception of Buddahfan). I'd swap them, but I don't think it could determine the team's success.
    Jack DeRozan Kleiza Bargnani Noah would win more than 40 games. I actually think Noah is underrated. What he did for Chicago last year, for the Gators. He would have been either no.1 or 2 pick in 06 if he had decided to be selfish and join the NBA. But he decided to win a second title with Florida.

  14. #34
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    Noah is a bit overrated, but he's a C in a league devoid of C's. He's deceptively strong, a good rebounder, a decent one on one defender and a good defender within the team system. More than that, he's also a good fiery competitor and a locker room leader. Amir is a good locker room influence because he's friendly and hard working, but he'll hardly light a fire under your ass. Also, he's been in the league 5 years already, and while he's still young, he doesn't look that much different than the player he was under Flip, whereas Noah's only been in the league 3 years and has shown significant growth each year. Don't get me wrong, Amir's a good guy and I'm glad we retained him (especially this year, we would have been BRUTAL without him), but he needs to fill out and control his fouls. Someone said it earlier, that it's twice the value of Amir's because he's twice the player Amir is. And it's true. Now lets just hope Amir proves me wrong and becomes a true rotation player in the league.

  15. #35
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Jack DeRozan Kleiza Bargnani Noah would win more than 40 games. I actually think Noah is underrated. What he did for Chicago last year, for the Gators. He would have been either no.1 or 2 pick in 06 if he had decided to be selfish and join the NBA. But he decided to win a second title with Florida.
    I would disagree - Al Horford was the stud their that got low post buckets off set plays and rugged rebounds. Noah was just the energy guy who picked up the garbage.

    He is high octane and a real gamer but u cant run set plays for him with consistency and expect him to beat his guy off the bounce.

    He and Amir are very similar guys - tremendous athletes with great energy and defensive intensity - neither is an offensice wizard. The whole point of this thread is to highlight the fact that these types of durable fast defensive minded bigs are not cheap - Raps got good value on Amir.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  16. #36
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    I would disagree - Al Horford was the stud their that got low post buckets off set plays and rugged rebounds. Noah was just the energy guy who picked up the garbage.

    He is high octane and a real gamer but u cant run set plays for him with consistency and expect him to beat his guy off the bounce.

    He and Amir are very similar guys - tremendous athletes with great energy and defensive intensity - neither is an offensice wizard. The whole point of this thread is to highlight the fact that these types of durable fast defensive minded bigs are not cheap - Raps got good value on Amir.
    I have to disagree aswell. Noah was the energy guy who picked up the garbage? He won the most valuable player in his final season with the Gators. He was a defensive beast, and rebounded far more/better than Horford did. Noah was greatly important in the double championship winning Gators team, and wasn't just a "guy who picked up the garbage".

    As for him being like Amir... Maybe if you think of it so generally. But Noah has twice the speed, is much stronger, bigger, is far greater defensively (Amir is an "okay" defender. Noah is one of the best defensive Cs in the league), greater offensively, a bigger threat to other teams, rebounds FAR better than Amir ever will (although per48 stats might say differently, you can't compare rebounding when one player played under 20 minutes, the other above 30), Noah has already proved how important he is on the court, has proven how well he can play, in both NBA and college level whilst Amir still hasn't done anything, apart from destroying teenagers in High School. Amir might become a decent player, but he is no way comparable to Noah. Noah > Johnson.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Starter Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    But Noah has twice the speed, is much stronger, bigger, is far greater defensively (Amir is an "okay" defender. Noah is one of the best defensive Cs in the league), greater offensively, a bigger threat to other teams, rebounds FAR better than Amir ever will (although per48 stats might say differently, you can't compare rebounding when one player played under 20 minutes, the other above 30), Noah has already proved how important he is on the court, has proven how well he can play, in both NBA and college level whilst Amir still hasn't done anything, apart from destroying teenagers in High School. Amir might become a decent player, but he is no way comparable to Noah. Noah > Johnson.
    I get it. Noah is better than Amir. I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with you, but the extent of your bromance with Noah is insane and actually seems to work against your argument. Did you think about any of these points before you typed them? According to you Noah should be able to Rival Usain Bolt in footspeed (23 mph - most atheltes are ~10mph) and both of them only score off open dunks or putbacks, so the offensive thing is moot. Even the rebounding... I mean Noah is better but only marginally.... you make it sound like it's comparing Dwight and Andrea....
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  18. #38
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    By Nick Friedell
    ESPNChicago.com
    Archive

    DEERFIELD, Ill. -- Joakim Noah has agreed to a five-year contract extension with the Chicago Bulls.

    ESPNChicago.com Bulls blog

    Bulls blog The latest news from Bulls reporter Nick Friedell. Blog

    The deal is worth $60 million plus additional bonuses, Dan Fegan, one of Noah's agents, told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher.

    "I'm pretty happy," Noah said Monday. "It's very exciting. I'm very happy that I'm going to be able to be here for a while. I feel like the Bulls definitely did me right.

    "But I promise I'm going to give 150 percent every time I'm out there, and I understand with a lot of money comes a lot of responsibility. I'm excited for the challenge."

    Noah admitted that a new CBA, and a potential lockout this summer, factored into his decision.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nb...ory?id=5646081

    I am not sure how an athlete can give more than 100% unless he is using some performance enhancing drug

    Must be some form of expression meant to impress the listener and reader

    On the other hand based upon his first comment that the "Bulls did me right" followed by "I am going to give 150%" it seems to me like he knows that he is being overpaid and to keep from feeling guilty about it he is promising the impossible.

    Just my observation

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    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Oct 5th, 2010 at 04:41 PM.
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  19. #39
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    Noah is a bonafide starting C, while Amir has yet to prove he can even stay on the court long enough to be a 6th man. So there really is no comparison until Amir actually plays 30MPG and even then, Noah can guard both PFs and Cs. That said, half decent rotation bigs are usually overpaid in comparison to guards and swingmen, so both of them are making out like bandits. Simple supply/demand economics. Injuries will probably be the deciding factor on value.

  20. #40
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    I have to disagree aswell. Noah was the energy guy who picked up the garbage? He won the most valuable player in his final season with the Gators. He was a defensive beast, and rebounded far more/better than Horford did. Noah was greatly important in the double championship winning Gators team, and wasn't just a "guy who picked up the garbage".
    No way dude - Horford went 3rd Noah went 9th for a reason.
    Much of the space and time enjoyed by Noah was compliments of work done by Horford double teams drawn by Horford.
    both have great pedigree - don't get me wrong I like both. I think hustle defense guys who bring it every night are way under rated (#Tayshaun Prince)

    Furthermore Howard and Camby are head and shoulders above Noah in terms of Defense... and lets not even talk about Noah's ability or lack-thereof to go get his own shot.

    Back to the original point Raps got good value with Amir @ 5.5 he is not as good as Noah in some ways but he is not too far off.
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