View Poll Results: Who Ya Wit? (Bernie Mac voice)

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  • Calderon

    13 43.33%
  • Jack

    17 56.67%
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Thread: Jose or Jarrett: Who Would You Start At PG?

  1. #21
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    Absolute funniest talking point about Calderon is he runs the offense better lol
    When did he ever run any offense here ? When ? this team has sucked for 3 years with him as the starter and the
    offense ran "better" thru him ? as opposed to whom ? TJ Ford ? when we were 47-35 and he was the starter and Jose was
    the back up ?
    The Calderon stans in 2010 love to talk about this like they did about his pointless TO/ast ratio 2 years ago but its just a BS talking point......The teams offense has never ran smoothly with him as the starter..the losing record and inconsistent numbers bare that out.....

    He doesnt run offenses...he makes the easiest and simplest plays that require the least amount of difficulty or reward....thats not running an offense,thats letting a back up PG be your starter...

  2. #22
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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    Absolute funniest talking point about Calderon is he runs the offense better lol
    When did he ever run any offense here ? When ? this team has sucked for 3 years with him as the starter and the
    offense ran "better" thru him ? as opposed to whom ? TJ Ford ? when we were 47-35 and he was the starter and Jose was
    the back up ?
    The Calderon stans in 2010 love to talk about this like they did about his pointless TO/ast ratio 2 years ago but its just a BS talking point......The teams offense has never ran smoothly with him as the starter..the losing record and inconsistent numbers bare that out.....

    He doesnt run offenses...he makes the easiest and simplest plays that require the least amount of difficulty or reward....thats not running an offense,thats letting a back up PG be your starter...
    You might want to brush up on your facts, here. Calderon DOES run an offense well. The Raptors offense the last four years has been good to very good. The reason the Raptors don't win usually has little to do with their offense and far more to do with their lack of defense and rebounding.

  3. #23
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You might want to brush up on your facts, here. Calderon DOES run an offense well. The Raptors offense the last four years has been good to very good. The reason the Raptors don't win usually has little to do with their offense and far more to do with their lack of defense and rebounding.

    Fact : team record with Calderon starting is atrocious
    Fact : widely regarded league wide as the worst defensive PG
    Fact : Bobkitties reneged on the deal because they didnt want him depsite having no starting PG(ether)
    Fact: team started winning and was consistently better at both ends with Jack
    Fact: defense DOES matter esp at PG



    Fiction: Calderon ran any kind of offense thru various screen rolls to a 24/10 All star PF


    raps offense was good last year (who started?) raps offense overrall hasnt been very good its been inconsistent over that 4 year span....to say the middle 2 years was very good is false.....and the best year they had lets remember he wasnt starting nor was he that second year 07-08....

    my point is CP,Deron,nash "run" offenses...calderon is an accessory to an offense who you cant play in the final 4 mins of a close game...

  4. #24
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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    Fact : team record with Calderon starting is atrocious
    Fact : widely regarded league wide as the worst defensive PG
    Fact : Bobkitties reneged on the deal because they didnt want him depsite having no starting PG(ether)
    Fact: team started winning and was consistently better at both ends with Jack
    Fact: defense DOES matter esp at PG



    Fiction: Calderon ran any kind of offense thru various screen rolls to a 24/10 All star PF


    raps offense was good last year (who started?) raps offense overrall hasnt been very good its been inconsistent over that 4 year span....to say the middle 2 years was very good is false.....and the best year they had lets remember he wasnt starting nor was he that second year 07-08....

    my point is CP,Deron,nash "run" offenses...calderon is an accessory to an offense who you cant play in the final 4 mins of a close game...
    I don't think you understand what running an offense is. Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Steve Nash initiate as well as run their offense. They're also much better PGs than Calderon. Calderon is not an initiator, but he runs an offense. And he does it well. He gets the ball to the right place and to the right people. It's something that is lost on 99% of Raptor fans because, quite frankly, most Raptor fans don't know what to look for.

    And last season, the offense ran more smoothly and consistently under Calderon. There were countless times with Jack starting that the Raptors couldn't score and Calderon came in with the team losing by double digits only to bring the Raptors back. He did it because he made the team better. And when the team started to go south, Jack was benched and replaced by Calderon, which did help.

    And since both players played the same amount of minutes last season, it's impossible to blame one person and not another. Jack started off the year horribly. He went into the starting lineup at about the same time as the team started gelling, which was more of a coincidence than anything. In fact, I predicted before the season that the team would struggle and then put things together by Christmas. It didn't take a genius to predict a team with 9 new guys with a tough schedule was going to struggle for a month or two.

    And I agree Calderon is a poor defender, which is why he would not be my choice to be the teams PG in the long term. But right now, Calderon is the best choice to start because the team needs to get everyone involved to start the game and Calderon is better at doing that than Jack is.

    Oh, and to answer your question about who started last year, Calderon started 39 games and Jack 43. In other words, they split it almost right down the middle.

  5. #25
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    Again dude your spouting things without facts....offense running smoothly is a BS talking point and myth....its as mythical a phrase as he "willed" them to a win.....They started winning consistenly when jack took his starting job thats a fact...instantaneously they reeled off wins when they made that change....

    Calderon doesnt run an offense...he doesnt put the balls in the right places....he makes an open pass to a shooter if its there,he takes an open shot if the screener gives it to him.....he doesnt manage anything....he stays at home and doesnt break defenses down because he doesnt have the skills or athleticism too....if anything on this team the offense is managed by the coach or as a unit....he doesnt command attention he doesnt deliver the ball on the floor to create open looks.....he makes simple passes when the D doesnt give him his end around non sense.....

    running an offense requires more than dumping the ball in the post and too rollers off screens....

  6. #26
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    its irrelevant who starts...if i were the coach id choose jack for pretty obvious reasons but i realize given his contract and situation he will get repeated attempts to get his starting job back.....overrall this is 20-25 win team so it really doesnt matter....in the long haul tho ur right no way u can win with calderon as ur lead guard and my argument is cuz he DOESNT run/manage an offense,he doesnt make plays because he cant not because he's managing a team,smh.....he's the poster boy for why assists in the NBA are beyond overrated....

  7. #27
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    I think Calderon should start.

    Calderon brings a calmness to the lineup that is needed at the start of games. He is better able to distribute the ball, to get early plays run for Bargnani, Kleiza and DeRozan, to get them into the games. This hasn't been shown in preseason so far, because the Raps have chosen not to run set plays.

    Jack is more of a me-first style PG, who is a scoring spark off the bench. I think he would team up well with Barbosa, Weems and Johnson, to form a very quick, athletic 2nd-unit that is capable of doing lots of damage.

    If Jack is having a strong game, I could see him playing more total minutes than Jose, but I think Jose should start with Bargnani & Davis/Dorsey & Kleiza & DeRozan.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Oct 13th, 2010 at 03:40 PM.

  8. #28
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    Without a dominant P n R big man to play off of, Calderon will no longer be an impact player offensively. He'll continue feeding his teammates long two point jump shots, but easy high percentage looks will be hard to come by.

    It's the Bosh effect. He's been able to make mediocre point guards like Mike James, T.J. Ford and Calderon look like borderline allstars.

    Jack will struggle as well, but with his superior ability to drive and kick and excel in one on one situations I think he'll still be able to find his offense.

  9. #29
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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    Again dude your spouting things without facts....offense running smoothly is a BS talking point and myth....its as mythical a phrase as he "willed" them to a win.....They started winning consistenly when jack took his starting job thats a fact...instantaneously they reeled off wins when they made that change....

    Calderon doesnt run an offense...he doesnt put the balls in the right places....he makes an open pass to a shooter if its there,he takes an open shot if the screener gives it to him.....he doesnt manage anything....he stays at home and doesnt break defenses down because he doesnt have the skills or athleticism too....if anything on this team the offense is managed by the coach or as a unit....he doesnt command attention he doesnt deliver the ball on the floor to create open looks.....he makes simple passes when the D doesnt give him his end around non sense.....

    running an offense requires more than dumping the ball in the post and too rollers off screens....
    It's obvious you don't understand what running an offense is. You're certainly not alone, but don't argue with me because you don't. It takes a certain degree of understanding to be able to see it and most fans simply don't have that.

    And when Jack went into the starting lineup, the team started off 2-4 and then got benched when the team went 1-9. That doesn't jibe with your argument.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    id rather have neither start but since that prob not going to happen id go with jack starting & if jose gets traded id use banks as back up till we get a true starting PG. if jose can win his starting spot from jack before he gets traded then all the power to him....

  11. #31
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It's obvious you don't understand what running an offense is. You're certainly not alone, but don't argue with me because you don't. It takes a certain degree of understanding to be able to see it and most fans simply don't have that.

    And when Jack went into the starting lineup, the team started off 2-4 and then got benched when the team went 1-9. That doesn't jibe with your argument.
    It does "jibe" if you use actual facts that the team was losing until he took Jose's job and then was the dominant starter for the rest of the year....Truth is breh is your whole premises is an opinion and altho a popular one in this town its not a good one....

    Theres NO evidence that supports Calderon runs a better offense or even a good one...the one year he was the starting PG the teams offense was inconsistent,two best years under BC TJ Ford started and last year he had his job took again while the offense was in the top 5 in the league,problem for you is it wasnt because of Calderon..and its silly to even make that case when he started less than 50% of the games....

    Im arguing that Calderon shouldnt start i really could careless what your perception of running an offense is.....Calderon doesnt run an offense how an offense needs to be runned by a starting PG,i could careless what you believe....

    oh and a if you want to make a legit case you shouldnt just disregard defense as if it is meaningless lol.....a major reason why he dont need to be starting is cuz he cant guard anyone...

  12. #32
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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    It does "jibe" if you use actual facts that the team was losing until he took Jose's job and then was the dominant starter for the rest of the year
    You need to check those facts. Jack lost his starting job to Calderon after the team went 1-9 and didn't get it back.

  13. #33
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    Its funny the arguments the pro Calderon ppl will make for him,similar to bargs short on facts and truth and long on personal bias and opinion.....

    Guy has regressed he is below mediocre offensively he cannot break down a defense therefore he cant score at will and if he cant do that he cant start in this league because he is such a liability defensively...this team will never win with him starting in fact no team in the nba will win with him as the lead guard because he doesnt have the necessary skill set to be a lead NBA guard playing 35-40 mins....and the last 4 years the records,numbers and stats tell that exact story....only thing thats changed are the pseudo phony excuses to disguise what he is......2 years ago his To/ast ratio was lauded as historic lol but then those fans realized it was meaningless when his overrall numbers went down and he had his job taken again and the team was losing and he still couldnt get all star recognition......now you have no stats to use so we have to lie about the offense being better runned with him at the helm lol......problem is the evidence dont support that lie....

    Whats funny is these supporters now will also tell you you cant see "it" and cant analyze "him" when watching him and cant break down what he does....no more statistics just corny talking points....problem is he is still mediocre,he still cant defend,he is still bottom 3rd in the league and regarded around the league as overrated and only raptor fans and BC cant see that...

  14. #34
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You need to check those facts. Jack lost his starting job to Calderon after the team went 1-9 and didn't get it back.
    Ugh Calderon was the starting PG to start the season last year,Jack was the back up...

    it was Jarrett that took over the starting job in early december/late november...

  15. #35
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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    Its funny the arguments the pro Calderon ppl will make for him,similar to bargs short on facts and truth and long on personal bias and opinion.....

    Guy has regressed he is below mediocre offensively he cannot break down a defense therefore he cant score at will and if he cant do that he cant start in this league because he is such a liability defensively...this team will never win with him starting in fact no team in the nba will win with him as the lead guard because he doesnt have the necessary skill set to be a lead NBA guard playing 35-40 mins....and the last 4 years the records,numbers and stats tell that exact story....only thing thats changed are the pseudo phony excuses to disguise what he is......2 years ago his To/ast ratio was lauded as historic lol but then those fans realized it was meaningless when his overrall numbers went down and he had his job taken again and the team was losing and he still couldnt get all star recognition......now you have no stats to use so we have to lie about the offense being better runned with him at the helm lol......problem is the evidence dont support that lie....

    Whats funny is these supporters now will also tell you you cant see "it" and cant analyze "him" when watching him and cant break down what he does....no more statistics just corny talking points....problem is he is still mediocre,he still cant defend,he is still bottom 3rd in the league and regarded around the league as overrated and only raptor fans and BC cant see that...
    First of all, Calderon was one of the few Raptors last year with a positive +/- rating. There is a stat for you.

    And I'll be the first person to admit that Calderon is not the same player he was when he signed his contract. Injuries affected him and he seemed to lose confidence because of it. It's too bad. He's still a decent player, though, and I don't think you give him enough credit. He's certainly not my long term solution at PG, but with the roster the team has, I think his ability to make those around him better and run an offense (yes, there is such a thing) will be better for the team than Jack, who sometimes plays with blinders on and really isn't the passer Calderon is.

    Also, please, please attempt some proper grammar because it's really difficult to figure out what the hell you're talking about half of the time because your sentences run on and you jump around all over the place. This is not an insult. I just find this type of writing a bit of a chore to read, and generally I simply don't.

  16. #36
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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    Ugh Calderon was the starting PG to start the season last year,Jack was the back up...

    it was Jarrett that took over the starting job in early december/late november...
    Jack started in early December when Calderon went down with injury. Calderon took back the starting spot in mid-March after the team started spiralling.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2010/

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Starter matt's Avatar
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    Unbelievable, 12 votes for Jose "Gatorade"?! He doesn't have the mentality we need in a starting point guard, period.

  18. #38
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    Set a defensive - points in the paint tone and start with Jack the Slasher.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  19. #39
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    Looks like Jack's recent play is separating him from Jose "let's eat sushi" Calderon..........

  20. #40
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    Question: Is the Bobcats placing their starting PG duties on Livingston's knees over Calderon because of their stupidity or how much Calderon sucks/how low his value is?

    Tbh I never really liked Jose, even during that pseudo-allstar stretch of his (They keep drooling over his AST/TO ratio, and I was all like "Yeah, that would be awesome if he ever made a risky pass); in that offseason, I wanted to move him for Prince. I think Jack is a far better player to start games with. Neither should play heavy minutes though...But I think Jack should close out games-he's been far more clutch than Calderon. And after that Philly game I think that a bit of separation is between them. Besides, he has better chemistry with the bench and is inexplicably far more aggressive coming off it. Though I'm scared of a Calderon-Barbosa backcourt defensively for extended periods of time...

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