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Jose or Jarrett: Who Would You Start At PG?

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  • #16
    Jack actually has a much higher shooting percentage (and PPG) so far, and had a higher 3-point percentage last year. He also does more than pound the ball at the 3-point line for 15 seconds then make an easy pass to a peripheral jump-shooter.

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    • #17
      DeSo wrote: View Post
      Jack actually has a much higher shooting percentage (and PPG) so far, and had a higher 3-point percentage last year. He also does more than pound the ball at the 3-point line for 15 seconds then make an easy pass to a peripheral jump-shooter.
      Plus Jack hasn't missed a game over the past 3 years while Jose is very injury prone........

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      • #18
        DeSo wrote: View Post
        Hmmmm......let's see. so far Jack leads Calderon in points, steals, defense, free throw attempts, getting into the paint, shooting percentage, 3-point percentage, rebounds, etc, and Calderon has a small (.5 per game) lead in assists. Why does Calderon get the benefit of the doubt all the time when he is playing poorly? Why is this even a discussion? Jack outplays him as a starter whenever he is given a chance, and even outplays him as a back-up. Jose is not a starting-caliber guard in this league. Period. Jack is no Rondo or Paul, but he is better, tougher, more durable, and more of a leader.
        If you're simply going on two preseason games, yes, Jack has played better. To say he's a better player, however, would be wrong. They're both at a similar level, but Jose has proven to be a better passer and better at running on offense than Jack, who's really more of a combo guard. The only things that Jack does better than Calderon is drive to the hoop and play defense. Your contention that Jack is tougher and more of a leader has absolutely merit. Calderon has always been the guy who has taken players aside, who communicates the most on the court, and off the court he was even the one who organized team dinners during training camp. And Calderon's toughness has never been questioned. His durability, sure, but certainly not toughness.

        Personally, I think Calderon is better as the starter because he's the only player on the team that can effectively run an offense. Jack is a nice spark off the bench because he can score, but ideally, especially with the roster the Raptors have, you want your starting PG to be able to make his teammates better. This is something Calderon does, but not Jack.
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        • #19
          You can't determine the starting PG without knowing who else is starting. Aside from Andrea's "guaranteed" starting spot, who else will be in there?

          If we're looking at a Weems-Kleiza-Johnson-Bargs lineup, I'd argue that Jose should start. Jack would only take touches away from Kleiza/Bargs while he generated his own offense from dribble penetration, and the Jose+Johnson pick and roll was shown to be effective last season.

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          • #20
            Why does calderon/jack have to be top scorers? Their game isn't back yet, but jose has improved tremendously. As long as they can get the ball to people who can get the percentage, they're doing their job. And doing the team a favor.

            As it stands, calderon's passing is way better than jacks. I'd definitely start jose.

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            • #21
              Absolute funniest talking point about Calderon is he runs the offense better lol
              When did he ever run any offense here ? When ? this team has sucked for 3 years with him as the starter and the
              offense ran "better" thru him ? as opposed to whom ? TJ Ford ? when we were 47-35 and he was the starter and Jose was
              the back up ?
              The Calderon stans in 2010 love to talk about this like they did about his pointless TO/ast ratio 2 years ago but its just a BS talking point......The teams offense has never ran smoothly with him as the starter..the losing record and inconsistent numbers bare that out.....

              He doesnt run offenses...he makes the easiest and simplest plays that require the least amount of difficulty or reward....thats not running an offense,thats letting a back up PG be your starter...

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              • #22
                Trife76 wrote: View Post
                Absolute funniest talking point about Calderon is he runs the offense better lol
                When did he ever run any offense here ? When ? this team has sucked for 3 years with him as the starter and the
                offense ran "better" thru him ? as opposed to whom ? TJ Ford ? when we were 47-35 and he was the starter and Jose was
                the back up ?
                The Calderon stans in 2010 love to talk about this like they did about his pointless TO/ast ratio 2 years ago but its just a BS talking point......The teams offense has never ran smoothly with him as the starter..the losing record and inconsistent numbers bare that out.....

                He doesnt run offenses...he makes the easiest and simplest plays that require the least amount of difficulty or reward....thats not running an offense,thats letting a back up PG be your starter...
                You might want to brush up on your facts, here. Calderon DOES run an offense well. The Raptors offense the last four years has been good to very good. The reason the Raptors don't win usually has little to do with their offense and far more to do with their lack of defense and rebounding.
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                • #23
                  Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  You might want to brush up on your facts, here. Calderon DOES run an offense well. The Raptors offense the last four years has been good to very good. The reason the Raptors don't win usually has little to do with their offense and far more to do with their lack of defense and rebounding.

                  Fact : team record with Calderon starting is atrocious
                  Fact : widely regarded league wide as the worst defensive PG
                  Fact : Bobkitties reneged on the deal because they didnt want him depsite having no starting PG(ether)
                  Fact: team started winning and was consistently better at both ends with Jack
                  Fact: defense DOES matter esp at PG



                  Fiction: Calderon ran any kind of offense thru various screen rolls to a 24/10 All star PF


                  raps offense was good last year (who started?) raps offense overrall hasnt been very good its been inconsistent over that 4 year span....to say the middle 2 years was very good is false.....and the best year they had lets remember he wasnt starting nor was he that second year 07-08....

                  my point is CP,Deron,nash "run" offenses...calderon is an accessory to an offense who you cant play in the final 4 mins of a close game...

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                  • #24
                    Trife76 wrote: View Post
                    Fact : team record with Calderon starting is atrocious
                    Fact : widely regarded league wide as the worst defensive PG
                    Fact : Bobkitties reneged on the deal because they didnt want him depsite having no starting PG(ether)
                    Fact: team started winning and was consistently better at both ends with Jack
                    Fact: defense DOES matter esp at PG



                    Fiction: Calderon ran any kind of offense thru various screen rolls to a 24/10 All star PF


                    raps offense was good last year (who started?) raps offense overrall hasnt been very good its been inconsistent over that 4 year span....to say the middle 2 years was very good is false.....and the best year they had lets remember he wasnt starting nor was he that second year 07-08....

                    my point is CP,Deron,nash "run" offenses...calderon is an accessory to an offense who you cant play in the final 4 mins of a close game...
                    I don't think you understand what running an offense is. Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Steve Nash initiate as well as run their offense. They're also much better PGs than Calderon. Calderon is not an initiator, but he runs an offense. And he does it well. He gets the ball to the right place and to the right people. It's something that is lost on 99% of Raptor fans because, quite frankly, most Raptor fans don't know what to look for.

                    And last season, the offense ran more smoothly and consistently under Calderon. There were countless times with Jack starting that the Raptors couldn't score and Calderon came in with the team losing by double digits only to bring the Raptors back. He did it because he made the team better. And when the team started to go south, Jack was benched and replaced by Calderon, which did help.

                    And since both players played the same amount of minutes last season, it's impossible to blame one person and not another. Jack started off the year horribly. He went into the starting lineup at about the same time as the team started gelling, which was more of a coincidence than anything. In fact, I predicted before the season that the team would struggle and then put things together by Christmas. It didn't take a genius to predict a team with 9 new guys with a tough schedule was going to struggle for a month or two.

                    And I agree Calderon is a poor defender, which is why he would not be my choice to be the teams PG in the long term. But right now, Calderon is the best choice to start because the team needs to get everyone involved to start the game and Calderon is better at doing that than Jack is.

                    Oh, and to answer your question about who started last year, Calderon started 39 games and Jack 43. In other words, they split it almost right down the middle.
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                    • #25
                      Again dude your spouting things without facts....offense running smoothly is a BS talking point and myth....its as mythical a phrase as he "willed" them to a win.....They started winning consistenly when jack took his starting job thats a fact...instantaneously they reeled off wins when they made that change....

                      Calderon doesnt run an offense...he doesnt put the balls in the right places....he makes an open pass to a shooter if its there,he takes an open shot if the screener gives it to him.....he doesnt manage anything....he stays at home and doesnt break defenses down because he doesnt have the skills or athleticism too....if anything on this team the offense is managed by the coach or as a unit....he doesnt command attention he doesnt deliver the ball on the floor to create open looks.....he makes simple passes when the D doesnt give him his end around non sense.....

                      running an offense requires more than dumping the ball in the post and too rollers off screens....

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                      • #26
                        its irrelevant who starts...if i were the coach id choose jack for pretty obvious reasons but i realize given his contract and situation he will get repeated attempts to get his starting job back.....overrall this is 20-25 win team so it really doesnt matter....in the long haul tho ur right no way u can win with calderon as ur lead guard and my argument is cuz he DOESNT run/manage an offense,he doesnt make plays because he cant not because he's managing a team,smh.....he's the poster boy for why assists in the NBA are beyond overrated....

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                        • #27
                          I think Calderon should start.

                          Calderon brings a calmness to the lineup that is needed at the start of games. He is better able to distribute the ball, to get early plays run for Bargnani, Kleiza and DeRozan, to get them into the games. This hasn't been shown in preseason so far, because the Raps have chosen not to run set plays.

                          Jack is more of a me-first style PG, who is a scoring spark off the bench. I think he would team up well with Barbosa, Weems and Johnson, to form a very quick, athletic 2nd-unit that is capable of doing lots of damage.

                          If Jack is having a strong game, I could see him playing more total minutes than Jose, but I think Jose should start with Bargnani & Davis/Dorsey & Kleiza & DeRozan.
                          Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Oct 13, 2010, 03:40 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Without a dominant P n R big man to play off of, Calderon will no longer be an impact player offensively. He'll continue feeding his teammates long two point jump shots, but easy high percentage looks will be hard to come by.

                            It's the Bosh effect. He's been able to make mediocre point guards like Mike James, T.J. Ford and Calderon look like borderline allstars.

                            Jack will struggle as well, but with his superior ability to drive and kick and excel in one on one situations I think he'll still be able to find his offense.

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                            • #29
                              Trife76 wrote: View Post
                              Again dude your spouting things without facts....offense running smoothly is a BS talking point and myth....its as mythical a phrase as he "willed" them to a win.....They started winning consistenly when jack took his starting job thats a fact...instantaneously they reeled off wins when they made that change....

                              Calderon doesnt run an offense...he doesnt put the balls in the right places....he makes an open pass to a shooter if its there,he takes an open shot if the screener gives it to him.....he doesnt manage anything....he stays at home and doesnt break defenses down because he doesnt have the skills or athleticism too....if anything on this team the offense is managed by the coach or as a unit....he doesnt command attention he doesnt deliver the ball on the floor to create open looks.....he makes simple passes when the D doesnt give him his end around non sense.....

                              running an offense requires more than dumping the ball in the post and too rollers off screens....
                              It's obvious you don't understand what running an offense is. You're certainly not alone, but don't argue with me because you don't. It takes a certain degree of understanding to be able to see it and most fans simply don't have that.

                              And when Jack went into the starting lineup, the team started off 2-4 and then got benched when the team went 1-9. That doesn't jibe with your argument.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                              • #30
                                id rather have neither start but since that prob not going to happen id go with jack starting & if jose gets traded id use banks as back up till we get a true starting PG. if jose can win his starting spot from jack before he gets traded then all the power to him....

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