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Thread: So can we now criticize BC for the Hibbert-O'Neal trade ?

  1. #41
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Hotshot wrote: View Post
    I think I am going to start a new thread with the title:

    So can we now give BC props for the Delfino&Ukic - A.Johnson&Weems trade?
    How about "can we now criticize Vince Carter for leaving Toronto?"

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Starter imaginelino's Avatar
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    In order to facilitate the trade the raptors agreed to Draft Hibbert on the Pacers behalf and then make the trade.

    It is not like they picked him wanting him and then passed him up.

    I at the time hoped for Hibbert to be selected as he was a great college player with a huge presence in the paint, very coach able and a big the raptors sorely need/needed.

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    all i can say is that everything happened for tha best

  4. #44
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    Default The entire premise of this thread is faulty

    As Apollo pointed out, the trade was for draft picks. The Raptors never "traded" Hibbert. And anyway, at the time Hibbert was best known for his fryin-pan hands.

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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    I guess you didnt notice he start ballin last year...
    Every game I watched he was in foul trouble. Guess we'll have to wait to the real season to make an assessment.

  6. #46
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    It's pretty unfair to say this, because different players would have played differently in different situations. At the time, Hibbert was like any other big-man late in the draft, he was a big guy that was pretty athletic and could rebound. If we made a mistake in trading TJ Ford (huge contract) for O'Neal who still was pretty decent (13 6 2 and good defense) and a pick who Indiana wanted. What about all the teams who passes on Hibbert? Anyways, Hibbert is good, but he is like an Amir Johnson with better offense. Amir is a better rebounder though, especially considering size, but both can't stay on the floor.

  7. #47
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Sorry but I don't think he's anything like Amir Johnson. I also don't think he's that athletic. It's why I said earlier that he should be hoping to turn out like Rasho, who in his prime was a very solid, stable force in the middle for a perennial contender.

    WEAKNESSES: Since Roy is so big he is not the most athletic C in the NCAA but how many 7'2'' guys do you see. Even though he is very efficient in the post his mechanics are only average. He also has trouble with lateral quickness so he will have trouble guarding the smaller more athletic C in the NBA. His condition is not up to par he will need to work hard to fix that. Teams dont know how much better he will get over the years but he will make an impact from the get-go.
    Source: MyNBADraft.com

    WEAKNESSES:
    - Mismatch Potential
    - Nimble footwork
    - Lateral quickness
    - Mechanical player
    - College system makes him difficult to evaluate
    - Not productive enough
    - Athleticism
    - Conditioning
    - Incredibly quick
    Source: DraftExpress.com

  8. #48
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    Don't feed the troll guys. That's Internet101.

  9. #49
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    No, we would burn him for his poor rebounding numbers. Just like we already do Bargnani. Over 7 ft tall, and less than 6 boards = Raptor fans hating you. JO brought us to Marion which brought us to cap space. Yeah, we blew it on Turk, but who wouldn't have at that point? Most of it was just a matter of bad luck.

  10. #50
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    From start, to JO, to Marion, to cap space left the team with two less 1st rounders. One they just got back but still.

  11. #51
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    From start, to JO, to Marion, to cap space left the team with two less 1st rounders. One they just got back but still.
    You can't look at it like that. It's like saying if I pay $1000/month of rent, after 12 months, I haven't gained anything except a net loss of $12000. When really, you had a roof over your head for 12 months (and quite possibly other things, like electricity).

    Similarly, you can't look at start to now and say we haven't gained anything except the loss of a first round pick.

    On a related note, while several people were enthralled and even giddy with the J.O. trade at the time ("OMG our own twin towers!"), quite a few fans (and Bill Simmons...) maintained that JO was done, and the only reason to do this trade was a $23M expiring contract in "mega-free agency" (the Bron sweepstakes). Roy Hibbert was an after-thought, and he really still should be given his lackluster 8.2 rebounds per 36 minutes (only slightly better than Bargs)

    Unfortunately, in an effort to retain Bosh, JO turned into Marion (who didn't want to resign), and then Hedo (who didn't want to play after he signed). Should we have ridden out JO's contract? In hindsight, certainly. But then I'd point you back to our last all-star break where most fans almost guaranteed Bosh's return because of our amazing turn around since the Hawks game and our inevitable playoff berth *cough*.

    Anyway, back to my point: there are a lot of other factors that need to be taken into consideration with a trade ASIDE FROM players, draft picks, and cash.

  12. #52
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    You can't look at it like that. It's like saying if I pay $1000/month of rent, after 12 months, I haven't gained anything except a net loss of $12000. When really, you had a roof over your head for 12 months (and quite possibly other things, like electricity).

    Similarly, you can't look at start to now and say we haven't gained anything except the loss of a first round pick.
    I'm not with you on this at all. They gave away two draft picks. I can understand one. They took a chance on Jermaine and it wasn't working, fine, but to then turn around and deal another to again grease the wheels to this time rid themselves of him was down right horrible. Yeah, they gained cap space but if they had waited another season they would have gained that cap space anyway.

    Let me ask you something. What did they gain?

    First trade they dealt an injury plagued player with an overpriced contract and a first round draft pick for an injury plagued player with a ridiculously overpriced contract. From start to finish of Jermaine's stint in Toronto, what did they gain? What did they lose?

    Next trade. They turned around a half year later and moved yet another draft pick and Jermaine's ridiculously over priced contract which at this point was down to a season and a half left on the meter for the Matrix, a guy who now in hindsight, they had no real interest in keeping. In this scenario what did they gain? What did they lose?

    My answer to both would be that they gained less than they lost. They suffered two net losses. How ever you want to quantify those two loses comes down to personal opinion but they lost twice.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I'm not with you on this at all. They gave away two draft picks. I can understand one. They took a chance on Jermaine and it wasn't working, fine, but to then turn around and deal another to again grease the wheels to this time rid themselves of him was down right horrible. Yeah, they gained cap space but if they had waited another season they would have gained that cap space anyway.

    Let me ask you something. What did they gain?

    First trade they dealt an injury plagued player with an overpriced contract and a first round draft pick for an injury plagued player with a ridiculously overpriced contract. From start to finish of Jermaine's stint in Toronto, what did they gain? What did they lose?

    Next trade. They turned around a half year later and moved yet another draft pick and Jermaine's ridiculously over priced contract which at this point was down to a season and a half left on the meter for the Matrix, a guy who now in hindsight, they had no real interest in keeping. In this scenario what did they gain? What did they lose?

    My answer to both would be that they gained less than they lost. They suffered two net losses. How ever you want to quantify those two loses comes down to personal opinion but they lost twice.
    Here's how I see it went down. TJ Ford and Calderon could not co-exist, presumably because TJ could not handle being 6th man. This mean one of the two had to move. At the time, most people were all for Calderon, who was drawing comparisons to be the next Nash. So we move TJ Ford, Rasho Nesterovic, and the draft rights to Roy Hibbert for Jermaine O'Neal.

    So far there haven't been many opinions, so I think we can all agree. At the time JO was acquired, Chris Bosh had two years left on his contract. My opinion at the time of the trade was it was horrible. I hated Jermaine O'Neal with a passion, so that was my own bias. But several people liked the acquisition. But you asked me, "What did they gain?" Personally, the only thing I saw good from the trade was that he was an expiring contract.

    A few months of Will Solomon and Hassan Adams later, and we were beginning to see that the Raptors didn't have the depth or the talent to compete. At this point you have two choices:

    1) Stick with JO so that you have his expiring contract for the next season
    2) Trade JO to stay competitive so that you have a chance at resigning Bosh the next season

    In hindsight, we should have done 1, but we did 2 because having an all-star (Bosh) is better than having cap space. So when you ask, "What did they gain?" My answer is: a chance to resign Bosh. Because we traded away a $23M contract, we had enough room to grab a number of talents for less money that would provide much needed depth, and hopefully give Bosh a reason to stay.

    Up until the all-star break, it was working. Ultimately, it didn't work. And now we can all say that we gained nothing. And that the net loss is two first round draft picks. But then you've missed the whole story.

  14. #54
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    Am I really the only one that sees that Hibbert is still VERY raw?

    He's all size. Two post moves, shakey j. And size.

    Please. If Alabi bulks up a bit, he'd be Hibbert 2.0. Neither has much over the other.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    From start, to JO, to Marion, to cap space left the team with two less 1st rounders. One they just got back but still.
    you know we wouldn't even be having this conversation if we had of just kept marion.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    Here's how I see it went down. TJ Ford and Calderon could not co-exist, presumably because TJ could not handle being 6th man.
    Neither could handle being the 6th man. As soon as the season was over Calderon started talking about how he would only sign with a team where he would start. TJ wore his heart on his sleeve and Jose was instead tactful. Because of it TJ was unfairly treated in his closing days as a Raptor but now the universe has come back into balance with Calderon receiving a good dose of "be careful what you wish for because you just might get it".

    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    So far there haven't been many opinions, so I think we can all agree. At the time JO was acquired, Chris Bosh had two years left on his contract. My opinion at the time of the trade was it was horrible. I hated Jermaine O'Neal with a passion, so that was my own bias. But several people liked the acquisition. But you asked me, "What did they gain?" Personally, the only thing I saw good from the trade was that he was an expiring contract.
    They didn't gain an expiring contract. He was still owed close to $45M over two years.

    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    "What did they gain?" My answer is: a chance to resign Bosh. Because we traded away a $23M contract, we had enough room to grab a number of talents for less money that would provide much needed depth, and hopefully give Bosh a reason to stay.

    Up until the all-star break, it was working. Ultimately, it didn't work. And now we can all say that we gained nothing. And that the net loss is two first round draft picks. But then you've missed the whole story.
    I disagree again. Many criticized Colangelo for trading for O'Neal, calling it a huge risk. When he dealt him away for an expiring and a draft pick he drew heat again. That trade set them up for an opportunity to potentially add one really good player to the rotation but I'm not sure anyone truly believed the coming options in that free agency period were franchise changers.

    I like your optimistic attitude but I'm not sure it's realistic. Everything Colangelo did that involved Jermaine O'Neal was a disaster in my opinion and I don't think I'll ever change my mind on that.

    Guess we're at a stand still.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 10:21 PM.

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    Smh at all these fruits trying to thorw change ups in my thread NOOOOOOPE !

    Deal is ass any way you slice it...we gave up a mid 1st rounder (coulda drafted Hibbs) plus TJ for fiya flame knees ONeal and in the end its a neg since we traded him for Marion and not having his exp deal...so no exp contract and no draft pick = fail

    ok we got it yet ? GOOD !

  18. #58
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    I'm fine with the stand still, but just to clarify my point, I meant JO was an expiring contract for this past season. I know he was owed $45M over two years when we acquired him.

  19. #59
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    I don't want to get technical with this but I asked you what they gained from the trade and you said an expiring contract. They didn't. As such, they didn't gain anything from the deal, they lost.

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