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  • #61
    kaine wrote: View Post
    I'll take him.
    he's good, he's got real talent.

    he's not an efficient scorer, but he'll give another scoring threat. plus he's a good passer and decente defender. also, he's got motivation.

    let's face it: players worth that salary are not coming to toronto.

    talent is everything, and we have too little. Derozan won't blossom in an all-star.
    You'd take him and the nearly $80 million (!!!!!!!) he's owed over the next four years simply to give the Raptors another scorer? For what end, exactly? WOuld they make the playoffs? Is he going to help turn them into a contender? Is getting Arenas going to help the team in the long run?

    And why are you writing of DeRozan's All-Star chances so early? I'm not saying he definitely will be an All-Star, but I wouldn't write him off after 1 season and 5 games. That's a little ridiculous.

    And by the way, Arenas is most definitely not a decent defender. How much have you watched him play?
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    • #62
      The Wizards should pay us for taking him off their hands.

      Then you might a have a deal.

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      • #63
        JoePanini wrote: View Post
        Here is on our draft grade where we got an A-

        Hollinger showing how good Bargnani actually was

        Chad Ford also thinks Bargnani is the "real deal"

        This is SI's mock draft

        Another Mock Draft


        NBAdraft.net also thinks Bargnani was going 1st


        The only draft site which didn't project Bargnani going first was Scout.com who projected him 5th

        Unless a player isn't considered to be "able" to be first overall pick, they don't get all this media exposure. You can't find evidence that any team is going to take a certain player unless it's a 100% like Griffin, Wall, LeBron, Yao etc..
        LOL. Mock drafts mean nothing. Draft grades mean even less. ESPN graded Joe Dumars A+ after drafting Darko #2 in arguably the best loaded draft year of all time. A...freaking...plus. Don't believe it? Read on....

        Detroit Pistons
        Round 1: Darko Milicic, F, Serbia-Montenegro (No. 2)
        Round 1: Carlos Delfino, G, Italy (No. 25)
        Round 2: Andres Gliniadakis, C, Greece (No. 58)
        How many teams with the best record in their conference end up with the best big man in the draft and a draft-night steal in Carlos Delfino? By now, you know about Darko, but Delfino will also be important down the road. He's tough, a strong shooter and plays aggressive defense. He reminds me a lot of Michael Finley. He could play an immediate role on the Pistons if he stays here next year. Gliniadakis was a nice pickup at the end of the draft. He's a 7-footer who can actually play. The Pistons will leave him in Greece for a few years and bring him over when he's ready.
        Grade: A+
        http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d03/story?id=1573414

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        • #64
          Golden, the Pistons were given an A+ because on their star studded team (Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Wallace, Wallace) having a bench which included Darko, who was a really good player in europe, and Delfino who is still good now, would definitely seal them a championship. I don't remember if they won, but I'm sure they got to the finals...

          And mock drafts are predictions on where they think players will be picked, if so many picked Bargnani going first, how can you say that no one would have picked him top 5?

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          • #65
            golden wrote: View Post
            LOL. Mock drafts mean nothing. Draft grades mean even less. ESPN graded Joe Dumars A+ after drafting Darko #2 in arguably the best loaded draft year of all time.
            I don't think you really understand the point of the argument. The point is that Bargnani was considered to be a top 3-5 player in the draft by most scouts in a draft that didn't have a clear cut best player.

            As for Darko, AT THE TIME, most felt that Detroit got a potentially great player. In hindsight, it was obviously a bad pick, but that doesn't mean it was at the time.
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            • #66
              JalenRose5 wrote: View Post
              When you say skillset I hope your joking? Like his amazing rebounding prowess, his help defense, his wicked fade away jumper when posting up against a shooting guard?? Sorry Mango, I don't have to try! Who cares if a 7 footer can shoot threes?? It's not a novelty anymore, it's a requirement! And who cares about him being 7th in the league in scoring, Reggie Evans is top three in the league for rebounds, does that mean he should be put on first team all nba???
              To think that Andrea doesn't have a great skill set is quite folly. He's a 7-footer who can put the ball on the floor and drive to the basket, runs the floor well, is a decent passer for a big-man, is a decent post defender and can stetch the floor with his shooting.
              For him to play defense and board more isn't exactly a skill - it's more determination and effort that he needs to put forth on his part. That part of his game can be easily remedied. When's the next time you'll see Reggie Evans shoot a 17-footer? There aren't too many big men in the NBA that can do what Andrea can do.
              Last edited by MangoKid; Mon Nov 8, 2010, 01:14 PM.

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              • #67
                Imperial wrote: View Post
                The Wizards should pay us for taking him off their hands.

                Then you might a have a deal.
                I still wouldn't take that deal. Too much of a headache. He actually would be half decent if he was moved to a contender - like if the Lakers made a play for him.

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                • #68
                  MangoKid wrote: View Post
                  For him to play defense and board more isn't exactly a skill - it's more determination and effort that he needs to put forth on his part. That part of his game can be easily remedied.
                  I disagree with this part of your comment. First of all, him playing good team defense would be adding a skill he doesn't have. With Bargnani it's not just effort on that end of the floor, it's knowledge of how to play it. He hasn't shown it yet in four years. It's simply a skill he doesn't have.

                  And to paraphrase Pat Riley, playing with effort IS a skill. Especially being able to do it over an 82 game season. Some guys have that skill, others don't. If you can turn a guy who doesn't give much effort into a hard worker, I think you'd have a position on every single NBA team.
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                  • #69
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    I disagree with this part of your comment. First of all, him playing good team defense would be adding a skill he doesn't have. With Bargnani it's not just effort on that end of the floor, it's knowledge of how to play it. He hasn't shown it yet in four years. It's simply a skill he doesn't have.

                    And to paraphrase Pat Riley, playing with effort IS a skill. Especially being able to do it over an 82 game season. Some guys have that skill, others don't. If you can turn a guy who doesn't give much effort into a hard worker, I think you'd have a position on every single NBA team.
                    playing with effort and heart can be remedied. If you play with energy, good things can happen. Can it be taught? Sure it can. Can someone pick it up with ease? Sure. Can putting the ball on the floor and taking it to the hoop or the art of shooting a 3-pointer - can that be picked up with ease? Not as much.

                    At the end of the year, I'll say that Bargnani ends up averaging 6+ boards on the season. If you don't believe me or don't agree, bet me a case of beer.

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                    • #70
                      Rebounding and defense are skills imo. Players can learn to rebound, and it takes practice. You need to know how to put your body and shield opposing players with your back and parts of your shoulder. Also you need to time the rebound so that when you are at the highest point of your leap, the ball is comfortably in your grasps. The best rebounders in the league have an "instinct" to rebound, but rebounding is something you can learn to be good at, it's a hard skill, but still a skill.
                      Defense is most definitely a skill. You learn how to use your hands and your body, and especially your feet. Also you need to learn how to anticipate your opponent and make sure you can always catch up with him (make sure if he drives you can still use the your shoulder and turn towards him etc..). All this can be thought, but it is very difficult, and that's why there aren't many great defenders out there. But that is just man-to-man defense, but defense is a lot more than that. It is coordination between all 5 players, making sure that if one of your teammates is beaten you need to be there to substitute him, and make sure he quickly either goes back to his man or goes to yours. All of this is very difficult, and in my opinion a lot harder than learning how to ball-handle and shoot. How many good ball-handlers and shooters are there, and how many good defenders and rebounders are there in the league?

                      This is coming from a huge Bargnani fan. Until Bargnani learns to atleast boxout his opponent, his other skills become irrelevant to Bargnani "bashers", and until he can rebound properly, he will always be a liability, at least on one end of the floor. I would not mind if he averaged 6 rebounds a game, as long as those 6 rebounds were the only ones he HAD to get, unfortunately it isn't the case, as he allows a lot of offensive boards.

                      I think Bargnani can become a better rebounder, never a good rebounder but at least a decent one. And I think he can also improve his defense, which I think has improved every year he's been in the league.

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                      • #71
                        +1 for Arenas, only for entertainment value. Nothing more. He would fit right in with the Young Gunz, he'll be the guy carrying an actual gun.

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                        • #72
                          I think everyone here can agree that neither jack or Calderon are starters in this league so we need a point guard. If not arenas then who? We need a guard that can night in and night out play defense against all the talented guards in this league. Is arenas ready to move passed all the foolishness that happened in Washington, that is the real question.

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                          • #73
                            grindhouse wrote: View Post
                            I think everyone here can agree that neither jack or Calderon are starters in this league so we need a point guard. If not arenas then who? We need a guard that can night in and night out play defense against all the talented guards in this league. Is arenas ready to move passed all the foolishness that happened in Washington, that is the real question.
                            If we have a real catastrophic season, we might get a franchise PG in Kyrie Ivring or Brandon Knight through the draft.

                            Arenas could move on, but he's be properly used on a team with a lot of vets, whereby if he slacks or becomes a distraction, the elderstateman on the team can give him a kick in the arse.

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                            • #74
                              JoePanini wrote: View Post
                              Rebounding and defense are skills imo. Players can learn to rebound, and it takes practice. You need to know how to put your body and shield opposing players with your back and parts of your shoulder. Also you need to time the rebound so that when you are at the highest point of your leap, the ball is comfortably in your grasps. The best rebounders in the league have an "instinct" to rebound, but rebounding is something you can learn to be good at, it's a hard skill, but still a skill.
                              Defense is most definitely a skill. You learn how to use your hands and your body, and especially your feet. Also you need to learn how to anticipate your opponent and make sure you can always catch up with him (make sure if he drives you can still use the your shoulder and turn towards him etc..). All this can be thought, but it is very difficult, and that's why there aren't many great defenders out there. But that is just man-to-man defense, but defense is a lot more than that. It is coordination between all 5 players, making sure that if one of your teammates is beaten you need to be there to substitute him, and make sure he quickly either goes back to his man or goes to yours. All of this is very difficult, and in my opinion a lot harder than learning how to ball-handle and shoot. How many good ball-handlers and shooters are there, and how many good defenders and rebounders are there in the league?

                              This is coming from a huge Bargnani fan. Until Bargnani learns to atleast boxout his opponent, his other skills become irrelevant to Bargnani "bashers", and until he can rebound properly, he will always be a liability, at least on one end of the floor. I would not mind if he averaged 6 rebounds a game, as long as those 6 rebounds were the only ones he HAD to get, unfortunately it isn't the case, as he allows a lot of offensive boards.

                              I think Bargnani can become a better rebounder, never a good rebounder but at least a decent one. And I think he can also improve his defense, which I think has improved every year he's been in the league.
                              When you're 7 feet, rebounding shouldn't be a skill. When you're smaller, it is. And boxing out is one of the first things you're taught as a youngster. You drive your butt into someone to create space and you grab the loose ball.

                              Defense is more skillful. You have to use your mind to read the other team on offense and their plays and to anticipate plays and proper positioning.

                              Hustle and energy however, should not be considered a skill, simply because everyone has it in them to do this. It just takes effort.

                              What Bargnani lacks should be easier to remedy than most people believe.

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                              • #75
                                grindhouse wrote: View Post
                                I think everyone here can agree that neither jack or Calderon are starters in this league so we need a point guard. If not arenas then who? We need a guard that can night in and night out play defense against all the talented guards in this league. Is arenas ready to move passed all the foolishness that happened in Washington, that is the real question.
                                Both Calderon and Jack very well could be starters in the right circumstances. They are both very skilled players but have their flaws. That said, neither is ever going to make the All-Star team. If you want a great PG, then you have to look elsewhere, but if you're looking for a PG who will fit into a certain system and you already have lots of talent to surround them, they could work.

                                The Raptors are lacking in talent, so Calderon and Jack are more exposed. When you're building a team, you want to get as much talent at each position as possible, not fill certain roles. At this point, however, they're fine because it's not as if the Raptors are going to be making the playoffs, anyway.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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