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Thread: Amir Johnson at his best >>> Bargnani

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    Default Amir Johnson at his best >>> Bargnani

    When he plays like he does tonight at both ends with aggression he is much more of an impact player than Andrea....and against arguably the best team in the league with the best front court its on full display.....

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    Raptors Republic Rookie CB4's Avatar
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    Amir played like Noah/Varejão tonight.

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    Andrea was having a off day.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Andrea put up 26, 9 and 2 the other night. Amir has one game of 12 and 15 - his best game of the season, yet Amir at his best is better than Bargnani? That's the best laugh I've had all night. Amir can hardly stay on the floor for 10 minutes. When he's consistent and puts up numbers like he did tonight game in and out, you can revisit that statement, but for now, it's just comedic relief.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Andrea put up 26, 9 and 2 the other night. Amir has one game of 12 and 15 - his best game of the season, yet Amir at his best is better than Bargnani? That's the best laugh I've had all night. Amir can hardly stay on the floor for 10 minutes. When he's consistent and puts up numbers like he did tonight game in and out, you can revisit that statement, but for now, it's just comedic relief.
    I don't understand how one can come to Trife's conclusion. I'm with you on this one, Mango.

    Here's the thing. Amir is a power forward who can rebound, play slightly above average d, and score off of cuts and put backs. Other than that, he's completely worthless.

    Andrea creates his own shot, can hit the post or jack 3s, plays great man to man post d, and is an outstanding passer.

    Until Amir starts creating his own shots, and learns that just because he has the ball it doesn't mean he should shoot, I suggest you refrain from comparing these two players.

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    Quote Introcollapse wrote: View Post
    Andrea creates his own shot, can hit the post or jack 3s, plays great man to man post d, and is an outstanding passer.
    HAH! Not really. You sound like Colangelo trying to sell an above average player as a great player.

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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    HAH! Not really. You sound like Colangelo trying to sell an above average player as a great player.
    Above average Player??? Put the pipe down for at least half a day before you post. You sound like a typical ignorant Bargnani hater.
    Last edited by RaptorRoo; Sat Nov 6th, 2010 at 01:46 PM.

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    Quote Introcollapse wrote: View Post
    I don't understand how one can come to Trife's conclusion. I'm with you on this one, Mango.

    Here's the thing. Amir is a power forward who can rebound, play slightly above average d, and score off of cuts and put backs. Other than that, he's completely worthless.

    Andrea creates his own shot, can hit the post or jack 3s, plays great man to man post d, and is an outstanding passer.

    Until Amir starts creating his own shots, and learns that just because he has the ball it doesn't mean he should shoot, I suggest you refrain from comparing these two players.
    Not that I want to jump into this debate, but your argument is flawed. First of all, saying, apart from playing defense, rebounding and scoring around the basket, Amir does nothing. Well, I'd say those three things are VERY important and pretty much the baseline for what all big men should do.

    And while a lot of his fans keep claiming that Bargnani can create his own shot and is a great passer, the numbers, as well as simply watching the games, go against that argument. The vast majority of Bargnani's field goals are assisted, and that's no different this year. Last night, only one field goal was not assisted. It's not that Bargnani doesn't TRY to create his own shot, it's just he's not very successful at it, for the most part. He shoots quite a low percentage on shots he tries to create for himself. And while Bargnani is posting up a little more this season, he's not hitting a good percentage of those shots. He's simply not comfortable down there. He's not comfortable with a lot of contact. He's not that type of player.

    And no matter how many time his fans say he's a great passer, it doesn't make it so. He'll make a nice pass once in a while, but just about every player does that. It doesn't make them a great passer. He currently turns the ball over more than he gets an assist. If he was a great passer he'd get more than 1.4 assists per game.

    Lastly, he's a good post defender, not a great one. Don't downplay what Amir really does well and pump up what Bargnani does well just to make your argument. It actually weakens it.

    As for comparing the two, Amir is very good at a few things and Bargnani is good at a few things. Is scoring more important than defense and rebounding? I certainly don't think so and hopefully you don't either. The question is, is Amir a liability on the offensive end? Obviously not. He's probably not going to get you 20 points, but he can score. Is Bargnani a liability on the boards and defensive end?
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Not that I want to jump into this debate, but your argument is flawed. First of all, saying, apart from playing defense, rebounding and scoring around the basket, Amir does nothing. Well, I'd say those three things are VERY important and pretty much the baseline for what all big men should do.

    And while a lot of his fans keep claiming that Bargnani can create his own shot and is a great passer, the numbers, as well as simply watching the games, go against that argument. The vast majority of Bargnani's field goals are assisted, and that's no different this year. Last night, only one field goal was not assisted. It's not that Bargnani doesn't TRY to create his own shot, it's just he's not very successful at it, for the most part. He shoots quite a low percentage on shots he tries to create for himself. And while Bargnani is posting up a little more this season, he's not hitting a good percentage of those shots. He's simply not comfortable down there. He's not comfortable with a lot of contact. He's not that type of player.

    And no matter how many time his fans say he's a great passer, it doesn't make it so. He'll make a nice pass once in a while, but just about every player does that. It doesn't make them a great passer. He currently turns the ball over more than he gets an assist. If he was a great passer he'd get more than 1.4 assists per game.

    Lastly, he's a good post defender, not a great one. Don't downplay what Amir really does well and pump up what Bargnani does well just to make your argument. It actually weakens it.

    As for comparing the two, Amir is very good at a few things and Bargnani is good at a few things. Is scoring more important than defense and rebounding? I certainly don't think so and hopefully you don't either. The question is, is Amir a liability on the offensive end? Obviously not. He's probably not going to get you 20 points, but he can score. Is Bargnani a liability on the boards and defensive end?
    It's no question that Amir is a better rebounder than Andrea, but is he better defender? That's debatable at the moment. Johnson uses his hands a bit too much and doesn't use his lateral quickness or his length to his advantage. In comparison, Andrea doesn't use his lateral quickness and just doesn't use his hands at all - or his body. For those that say that Bargnani is a liability on the defensive end, I'd say that Johnson is just as much of a liability of the defensive end as well because he doesnt stay in front of his man and he commits too many fouls leading to him sitting on the bench. Both guys could be much better collectively on the defensive end.

    However, at this present time, I can't say that Amir at his best is better than Andrea.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    IMO Johnson's greatest potential is the first big of the bench. He is an energy guy who can rebound, block shots, dunk on a dish, and run the break. If he can average 10-12 points and 7-8 rebs in 20mpg, I'd be very happy.

    Of course the Raps problem is not bigs coming off the bench, it is lack of big to start the game.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    It's no question that Amir is a better rebounder than Andrea, but is he better defender? That's debatable at the moment. Johnson uses his hands a bit too much and doesn't use his lateral quickness or his length to his advantage. In comparison, Andrea doesn't use his lateral quickness and just doesn't use his hands at all - or his body. For those that say that Bargnani is a liability on the defensive end, I'd say that Johnson is just as much of a liability of the defensive end as well because he doesnt stay in front of his man and he commits too many fouls leading to him sitting on the bench. Both guys could be much better collectively on the defensive end.

    However, at this present time, I can't say that Amir at his best is better than Andrea.
    I would most definitely say that Amir is a better defender than Bargnani. No question. Bargnani is better defending bigger guys in the post, but Amir is so much better on quicker guys and playing team defense that he definitely surpasses Bargnani defensively. Easily. Amir isn't a liability on the defensive end. Bargnani is.

    As for which one is better, I don't know. It's pretty subjective, if you ask me. Both are skilled players. Obviously Amir has trouble staying on the floor, which is a problem. If you want to ask me which player I'd rather have on my team, I'd say Amir every time, though. Amir may have trouble staying on the floor, but at least he's not going to be a liability when he's on the floor. Bargnani is. To me, that's the deal breaker.
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    For those that say that Bargnani is a liability on the defensive end, I'd say that Johnson is just as much of a liability of the defensive end as well because he doesnt stay in front of his man and he commits too many fouls leading to him sitting on the bench. Both guys could be much better collectively on the defensive end.

    However, at this present time, I can't say that Amir at his best is better than Andrea.
    Raptors with Andrea on the floor: DRtg of 115.87
    Raptors with Andrea on the bench: DRtg of 106.77
    Difference is >9 pts (per 100 possessions) better defense with Andrea on the BENCH.


    Raptors with Amir on the floor: DRtg of 107.92
    Raptors with Amir on the bench: DRtg of 116.17
    Difference is >8 pts (per 100 possessions) better defense with Amir on the FLOOR.

    This is where the "yeah, but without Andrea's 18 points we wouldn't have been in the game". How about a guy that scores 10 AND prevents 10 at the defensive end?

    Who creates more value? Or should the only measure of a player's effectiveness be points per game?

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Andrea put up 26, 9 and 2 the other night. Amir has one game of 12 and 15 - his best game of the season, yet Amir at his best is better than Bargnani? That's the best laugh I've had all night. Amir can hardly stay on the floor for 10 minutes. When he's consistent and puts up numbers like he did tonight game in and out, you can revisit that statement, but for now, it's just comedic relief.

    Exactly, that post is just plain laughable. Bargnani is far and away the only consistent impact player so far this season. Amir plays one good game not in his usual foul trouble and magically becomes more of an impact player than Andrea.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    so does this bring his rebounds per game higher than his fouls per game?

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    so does this bring his rebounds per game higher than his fouls per game?
    MPG 15
    PPG--6
    RPG--5
    FPG--3

    Those are about the same per game numbers as last season, except the minutes per game are down about 20%.
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    MPG 15
    PPG--6
    RPG--5
    FPG--3

    Those are about the same per game numbers as last season, except the minutes per game are down about 20%.
    niiiice... last time i checked he was at 3 fouls per, and 2 point something rebounds.. but its too late and im too lazy to do my own math

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    niiiice... last time i checked he was at 3 fouls per, and 2 point something rebounds.. but its too late and im too lazy to do my own math
    Actually the math is about at a fifth grade level at the most

    Games---------5
    Minutes-------74 = 14.8 mpg
    Points---------30 = 6 ppg
    Rebounds-----24 = 4.8 rpg
    Fouls----------14 = 2.8 fpg


    In 2009-10
    ----------------------
    Games-------82
    MPG----------17.7
    PPG-----------6.2
    RPG-----------4.8
    FPG------------3.1

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnsam01.html

    By the way

    The 15 rebounds was personal career best for one game. He had had 14 in one game previously.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Sat Nov 6th, 2010 at 02:30 AM.
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    3-4 of his rebounds came on a missed shot and he kept tipping it back and forth over the iron but in the end it didn't go in and the lakers got the ball

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    Finally, this is really going to help Amir's confidence. I knew he could do this, and he did it right on time, another off game would have probably destroyed any confidence from himself and the fans...

    Trife, Amir at his best is not as good as Bargnani at his best.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Finally, this is really going to help Amir's confidence. I knew he could do this, and he did it right on time, another off game would have probably destroyed any confidence from himself and the fans...

    Trife, Amir at his best is not as good as Bargnani at his best.
    I am not holding my breadth about this being a breakout game. I have no idea what he will do this year.

    In any case, my guess is that he got a home cooked meal from his mom yesterday and talked to his family about the situation and that might have helped his spirits and game tonight.

    I am more concerned with Evans.

    Playing four on five on offense with him out there is really starting to hurt the Raptors, especially in Q1.

    His rebounds are great but he isn't doing much of anything else positive.

    I don't know who should start at PF, but it shouldn't be Evans.
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