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Thread: Amir Johnson at his best >>> Bargnani

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter Ryan_1523's Avatar
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    Quote Pele wrote: View Post
    If Jose can put 8 - 10 good games in he will garner interest from a contending team looking for a back-up pg. (win it now vs. lock-out season next year)
    Why would anyone want Jose as a backup for 10m a year? About double what Jack is getting, who's equally as efficient.. Not to mention, injury prone

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Rookie RaptorRoo's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Andrea put up 26, 9 and 2 the other night. Amir has one game of 12 and 15 - his best game of the season, yet Amir at his best is better than Bargnani? That's the best laugh I've had all night. Amir can hardly stay on the floor for 10 minutes. When he's consistent and puts up numbers like he did tonight game in and out, you can revisit that statement, but for now, it's just comedic relief.

    Exactly, that post is just plain laughable. Bargnani is far and away the only consistent impact player so far this season. Amir plays one good game not in his usual foul trouble and magically becomes more of an impact player than Andrea.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie RaptorRoo's Avatar
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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    HAH! Not really. You sound like Colangelo trying to sell an above average player as a great player.
    Above average Player??? Put the pipe down for at least half a day before you post. You sound like a typical ignorant Bargnani hater.
    Last edited by RaptorRoo; Sat Nov 6th, 2010 at 01:46 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Introcollapse wrote: View Post
    I don't understand how one can come to Trife's conclusion. I'm with you on this one, Mango.

    Here's the thing. Amir is a power forward who can rebound, play slightly above average d, and score off of cuts and put backs. Other than that, he's completely worthless.

    Andrea creates his own shot, can hit the post or jack 3s, plays great man to man post d, and is an outstanding passer.

    Until Amir starts creating his own shots, and learns that just because he has the ball it doesn't mean he should shoot, I suggest you refrain from comparing these two players.
    Not that I want to jump into this debate, but your argument is flawed. First of all, saying, apart from playing defense, rebounding and scoring around the basket, Amir does nothing. Well, I'd say those three things are VERY important and pretty much the baseline for what all big men should do.

    And while a lot of his fans keep claiming that Bargnani can create his own shot and is a great passer, the numbers, as well as simply watching the games, go against that argument. The vast majority of Bargnani's field goals are assisted, and that's no different this year. Last night, only one field goal was not assisted. It's not that Bargnani doesn't TRY to create his own shot, it's just he's not very successful at it, for the most part. He shoots quite a low percentage on shots he tries to create for himself. And while Bargnani is posting up a little more this season, he's not hitting a good percentage of those shots. He's simply not comfortable down there. He's not comfortable with a lot of contact. He's not that type of player.

    And no matter how many time his fans say he's a great passer, it doesn't make it so. He'll make a nice pass once in a while, but just about every player does that. It doesn't make them a great passer. He currently turns the ball over more than he gets an assist. If he was a great passer he'd get more than 1.4 assists per game.

    Lastly, he's a good post defender, not a great one. Don't downplay what Amir really does well and pump up what Bargnani does well just to make your argument. It actually weakens it.

    As for comparing the two, Amir is very good at a few things and Bargnani is good at a few things. Is scoring more important than defense and rebounding? I certainly don't think so and hopefully you don't either. The question is, is Amir a liability on the offensive end? Obviously not. He's probably not going to get you 20 points, but he can score. Is Bargnani a liability on the boards and defensive end?
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  5. #25
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Not that I want to jump into this debate, but your argument is flawed. First of all, saying, apart from playing defense, rebounding and scoring around the basket, Amir does nothing. Well, I'd say those three things are VERY important and pretty much the baseline for what all big men should do.

    And while a lot of his fans keep claiming that Bargnani can create his own shot and is a great passer, the numbers, as well as simply watching the games, go against that argument. The vast majority of Bargnani's field goals are assisted, and that's no different this year. Last night, only one field goal was not assisted. It's not that Bargnani doesn't TRY to create his own shot, it's just he's not very successful at it, for the most part. He shoots quite a low percentage on shots he tries to create for himself. And while Bargnani is posting up a little more this season, he's not hitting a good percentage of those shots. He's simply not comfortable down there. He's not comfortable with a lot of contact. He's not that type of player.

    And no matter how many time his fans say he's a great passer, it doesn't make it so. He'll make a nice pass once in a while, but just about every player does that. It doesn't make them a great passer. He currently turns the ball over more than he gets an assist. If he was a great passer he'd get more than 1.4 assists per game.

    Lastly, he's a good post defender, not a great one. Don't downplay what Amir really does well and pump up what Bargnani does well just to make your argument. It actually weakens it.

    As for comparing the two, Amir is very good at a few things and Bargnani is good at a few things. Is scoring more important than defense and rebounding? I certainly don't think so and hopefully you don't either. The question is, is Amir a liability on the offensive end? Obviously not. He's probably not going to get you 20 points, but he can score. Is Bargnani a liability on the boards and defensive end?
    It's no question that Amir is a better rebounder than Andrea, but is he better defender? That's debatable at the moment. Johnson uses his hands a bit too much and doesn't use his lateral quickness or his length to his advantage. In comparison, Andrea doesn't use his lateral quickness and just doesn't use his hands at all - or his body. For those that say that Bargnani is a liability on the defensive end, I'd say that Johnson is just as much of a liability of the defensive end as well because he doesnt stay in front of his man and he commits too many fouls leading to him sitting on the bench. Both guys could be much better collectively on the defensive end.

    However, at this present time, I can't say that Amir at his best is better than Andrea.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    IMO Johnson's greatest potential is the first big of the bench. He is an energy guy who can rebound, block shots, dunk on a dish, and run the break. If he can average 10-12 points and 7-8 rebs in 20mpg, I'd be very happy.

    Of course the Raps problem is not bigs coming off the bench, it is lack of big to start the game.

  7. #27
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    It's no question that Amir is a better rebounder than Andrea, but is he better defender? That's debatable at the moment. Johnson uses his hands a bit too much and doesn't use his lateral quickness or his length to his advantage. In comparison, Andrea doesn't use his lateral quickness and just doesn't use his hands at all - or his body. For those that say that Bargnani is a liability on the defensive end, I'd say that Johnson is just as much of a liability of the defensive end as well because he doesnt stay in front of his man and he commits too many fouls leading to him sitting on the bench. Both guys could be much better collectively on the defensive end.

    However, at this present time, I can't say that Amir at his best is better than Andrea.
    I would most definitely say that Amir is a better defender than Bargnani. No question. Bargnani is better defending bigger guys in the post, but Amir is so much better on quicker guys and playing team defense that he definitely surpasses Bargnani defensively. Easily. Amir isn't a liability on the defensive end. Bargnani is.

    As for which one is better, I don't know. It's pretty subjective, if you ask me. Both are skilled players. Obviously Amir has trouble staying on the floor, which is a problem. If you want to ask me which player I'd rather have on my team, I'd say Amir every time, though. Amir may have trouble staying on the floor, but at least he's not going to be a liability when he's on the floor. Bargnani is. To me, that's the deal breaker.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I would most definitely say that Amir is a better defender than Bargnani. No question. Bargnani is better defending bigger guys in the post, but Amir is so much better on quicker guys and playing team defense that he definitely surpasses Bargnani defensively. Easily. Amir isn't a liability on the defensive end. Bargnani is.

    As for which one is better, I don't know. It's pretty subjective, if you ask me. Both are skilled players. Obviously Amir has trouble staying on the floor, which is a problem. If you want to ask me which player I'd rather have on my team, I'd say Amir every time, though. Amir may have trouble staying on the floor, but at least he's not going to be a liability when he's on the floor. Bargnani is. To me, that's the deal breaker.

    ^ problem in here is dudes are trying to change the thread title..i clearly said Amir at his best is better..not the Amir who picks up sloppy fouls and plays 10 mins...Clearly last night is Amir at his best and its far more valuable to this team than what Andrea gives,IMO its not even really that close..he was dominated at both ends...he gives what we need a big to give us and thats a far cry from a big who scores irrelevant points and gives you nothing else....I mean D12 is a perfect example fo a guy who isnt great offensively but dominates a game because rebounding and defense...and is considered a top 5 player....thats how important it is at that position....

    and the other fail in here is attempting to argue comparitivity between what Amir does and Andrea..you cant they play diff positions and do different things..im comparing what they do respectively at there position and what it amounts for the team....

    Dudes in here trying to compare what Amir does defensively and Andrea is futile...Amir guard quick smaller players he doesnt need to protect the rim he needs to be quick and use his hands and feet,athleticism.....Andrea has to protect the rim and body guys inside and make them earn there points.....Amir is much better at what we need him to do than Andrea is supposed to do...thats the basic premise of this thread......

    Suggesting well Andrea gets his own shot and scores more and has range us rrelevant compared to Amir because thats not what Amir is here for...what he does and is expected of him is ore impactful than what Andrea does and what is expected of him.....

    In that form just watching last night against the Utah,SAC games its pretty evident...Amir is more valuable when he plays too his ceiling...

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    The most ridiculus thread Ive seen in a long time.

    Andrea IS a legit #1 option on an NBA team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true.

    Amir is hoping to become a fifth starter, hustle type player who is slightly more reliable than Reggie if asked to actually create his own shot (or gets the ball with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock) . He runs the floor well, is a great finisher in the open court and a good rebounder. So far, his defense is suspect, since he cant seem to stay on the floor long enough to make a difference without collecting a bunch of fouls.

    Listen - I love Amir, I hope he turns into a valuable member of the raps, but lets be clear, even in his wildest dreams, hes a solid #4 of #5 option on a good NBA team. Andrea, as much as everyone hates on him, can deliver 20+ a night with the other team designing their D to stop him.

    Its not even debateable, and I wish raps fans would get behind their best player .. cause this team aint going anywhere without him ...

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    the most ridiculus thread ive seen in a long time.

    Andrea is a legit #1 option on an nba team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true.

    Amir is hoping to become a fifth starter, hustle type player who is slightly more reliable than reggie if asked to actually create his own shot (or gets the ball with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock) . He runs the floor well, is a great finisher in the open court and a good rebounder. So far, his defense is suspect, since he cant seem to stay on the floor long enough to make a difference without collecting a bunch of fouls.

    Listen - i love amir, i hope he turns into a valuable member of the raps, but lets be clear, even in his wildest dreams, hes a solid #4 of #5 option on a good nba team. Andrea, as much as everyone hates on him, can deliver 20+ a night with the other team designing their d to stop him.

    Its not even debateable, and i wish raps fans would get behind their best player .. Cause this team aint going anywhere without him ...
    QFT. /thread

  11. #31
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    The most ridiculus thread Ive seen in a long time.

    Andrea IS a legit #1 option on an NBA team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true.
    I don't agree he's a legit #1 option. He currently gets the majority of his points off of other people driving and dishing or from the ball being moved around the perimeter. You can't give him the ball and expect to get anything out of it. The majority of the time, he'll try a pump fake, which generally doesn't work, and then he just gives up and passes the ball to someone else.

    As for his low post game, he's certainly been trying to do it more, but I can't believe anyone whose been watching would claim that it's good. He's got a low rate of production when he posts up.

    Oh, and he's he's more than not the best rebounder and team defender. He's extremely poor. That's like saying that Michael Jordan was a good player.

    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Amir is hoping to become a fifth starter, hustle type player who is slightly more reliable than Reggie if asked to actually create his own shot (or gets the ball with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock) . He runs the floor well, is a great finisher in the open court and a good rebounder. So far, his defense is suspect, since he cant seem to stay on the floor long enough to make a difference without collecting a bunch of fouls.

    Listen - I love Amir, I hope he turns into a valuable member of the raps, but lets be clear, even in his wildest dreams, hes a solid #4 of #5 option on a good NBA team. Andrea, as much as everyone hates on him, can deliver 20+ a night with the other team designing their D to stop him.
    I'm not sure how you can say he's not a good defender. He is. Obviously he needs to be able to stop the fouling, but when he's on the floor, the team is better defensively.

    And obviously Amir isn't good at creating his own shot (neither is Bargnani), but that's not a strength. He's still good on the offensive end because he's a good offensive rebounder, good at finishing and good at cutting to the basket. When Amir is on the floor, he's never a liability. The same can't be said about Bargnani.

    And I think it's great that Bargnani can score 20 ppg, but unfortunately that's overshadowed by the things that he can't do which are equally important, especially for a big man. There have been plenty of good scorers over the years who couldn't get playing time because they couldn't, or didn't, also do the other important things that help a team win.

    And there's a reason that just about every team in the league would take Joakim Noah over Bargnani, and it's certainly not because Noah can score, is it?

    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Its not even debateable, and I wish raps fans would get behind their best player .. cause this team aint going anywhere without him ...
    Well, it's pretty clear to anyone who is a student of the game and knows the history that the team isn't going anywhere with him. You simply can't win with a big man who's below average on the boards and defensively.
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  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter cornbreadd's Avatar
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    Bargs at his best > Amir at his best, but Amir at his best can be better than Bargs

  13. #33
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    Andrea IS a legit #1 option on an NBA team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true.
    Andrea is a 2nd or 3rd option offensively at best. He relies far too much on others creating for him. And he's not only 'not the best' rebounder or team defender, he's one of the league's very 'worst'.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Rookie RaptorRoo's Avatar
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    Quote Brasky wrote: View Post
    Andrea is a 2nd or 3rd option offensively at best. He relies far too much on others creating for him. And he's not only 'not the best' rebounder or team defender, he's one of the league's very 'worst'.
    Yaa if he was on a championship caliber team he would be 2nd or 3rd but on this team he is far and away the number 1 option. Right now, he's the only consistent scorer and with Reggie being a rebounding machine he can focus more on the much needed offensive side of the ball.

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    Quote RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    Yaa if he was on a championship caliber team he would be 2nd or 3rd but on this team he is far and away the number 1 option. Right now, he's the only consistent scorer and with Reggie being a rebounding machine he can focus more on the much needed offensive side of the ball.
    If he were on a Championship calibre team he'd be on the bench. Hard to be the 2nd or 3rd option from the bench.
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  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Rookie Captain Haddock's Avatar
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    Offensively, he's too good to be a bench player. The thought of him with Tim Duncan and a Gregg Popovich motivating him gives me a Spurs homer semi.
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  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Rookie RaptorRoo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If he were on a Championship calibre team he'd be on the bench. Hard to be the 2nd or 3rd option from the bench.
    No his offense has improved to the point where he would be at least a 3rd option on a championship caliber team. Once he improves his rebounding which he will he would then become a 3rd option on a championship winning team.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter Dark Knight's Avatar
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    Well of course Amir at his best is better than Bargnani on an off day, but its not even close when Bargs is at his best. Not even close.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Captain Haddock wrote: View Post
    Offensively, he's too good to be a bench player. The thought of him with Tim Duncan and a Gregg Popovich motivating him gives me a Spurs homer semi.
    Why do people think that guys like Popovich can change a player? Plenty of talented, but flawed players have passed through San Antonio unchanged. Hedo Turkoglu, for one. Drew Gooden passed through quickly. Melvin Ely, who was a lottery pick thought to have lots of potential did nothing in San Antonio.

    Most of the time, teams like San Antonio simply don't get guys like Bargnani who they "have to" change. San Antonio like their big men to do two things. Rebound and defend. I'm pretty sure they would pass on Bargnani.

    On a bad team, Bargnani is too good offensively to come off the bench, but on a contender, his defense and rebounding are simply too poor for him to get big minutes. You can't have a guy who's such a liability on the boards and on defense playing big minutes if you want any chance of winning a title. Look at a guy like Kevin Martin. He's a big time scorer, but a horrible defender. And the only time he's been in the playoffs was when he was a bench player who actually did the little things like defend.

    Quote RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
    No his offense has improved to the point where he would be at least a 3rd option on a championship caliber team. Once he improves his rebounding which he will he would then become a 3rd option on a championship winning team.
    Can you name me one starting big man on a Championship team who was a below average defender and rebounder? Go back as far as you want. You won't be able to. There's a reason for that.

    And WHY do you think Bargnani's rebounding will improve? Because you say so? I don't know of any other big men who have drastically improved their rebounding after four years in the league. There's no indication he will.

    And he would still be a poor defender.
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  20. #40
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    The statement open ended. It's subjective. It's like saying Derozan at his best is better than Ray Allen. Sure, anyone at their best can be better than most players in the league normally.

    IF (and that's a huge IF) Johnson can play more than 12-15 minutes a night without picking up 3-4 fouls on a consistent basis, he has a chance of making a big impact, but to this point, he hasn't.

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