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Amir Johnson at his best >>> Bargnani

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  • #31
    mountio wrote: View Post
    The most ridiculus thread Ive seen in a long time.

    Andrea IS a legit #1 option on an NBA team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true.
    I don't agree he's a legit #1 option. He currently gets the majority of his points off of other people driving and dishing or from the ball being moved around the perimeter. You can't give him the ball and expect to get anything out of it. The majority of the time, he'll try a pump fake, which generally doesn't work, and then he just gives up and passes the ball to someone else.

    As for his low post game, he's certainly been trying to do it more, but I can't believe anyone whose been watching would claim that it's good. He's got a low rate of production when he posts up.

    Oh, and he's he's more than not the best rebounder and team defender. He's extremely poor. That's like saying that Michael Jordan was a good player.

    mountio wrote: View Post
    Amir is hoping to become a fifth starter, hustle type player who is slightly more reliable than Reggie if asked to actually create his own shot (or gets the ball with less than 10 seconds on the shot clock) . He runs the floor well, is a great finisher in the open court and a good rebounder. So far, his defense is suspect, since he cant seem to stay on the floor long enough to make a difference without collecting a bunch of fouls.

    Listen - I love Amir, I hope he turns into a valuable member of the raps, but lets be clear, even in his wildest dreams, hes a solid #4 of #5 option on a good NBA team. Andrea, as much as everyone hates on him, can deliver 20+ a night with the other team designing their D to stop him.
    I'm not sure how you can say he's not a good defender. He is. Obviously he needs to be able to stop the fouling, but when he's on the floor, the team is better defensively.

    And obviously Amir isn't good at creating his own shot (neither is Bargnani), but that's not a strength. He's still good on the offensive end because he's a good offensive rebounder, good at finishing and good at cutting to the basket. When Amir is on the floor, he's never a liability. The same can't be said about Bargnani.

    And I think it's great that Bargnani can score 20 ppg, but unfortunately that's overshadowed by the things that he can't do which are equally important, especially for a big man. There have been plenty of good scorers over the years who couldn't get playing time because they couldn't, or didn't, also do the other important things that help a team win.

    And there's a reason that just about every team in the league would take Joakim Noah over Bargnani, and it's certainly not because Noah can score, is it?

    mountio wrote: View Post
    Its not even debateable, and I wish raps fans would get behind their best player .. cause this team aint going anywhere without him ...
    Well, it's pretty clear to anyone who is a student of the game and knows the history that the team isn't going anywhere with him. You simply can't win with a big man who's below average on the boards and defensively.
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    • #32
      Bargs at his best > Amir at his best, but Amir at his best can be better than Bargs

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      • #33
        mountio wrote: View Post
        Andrea IS a legit #1 option on an NBA team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true.
        Andrea is a 2nd or 3rd option offensively at best. He relies far too much on others creating for him. And he's not only 'not the best' rebounder or team defender, he's one of the league's very 'worst'.

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        • #34
          Brasky wrote: View Post
          Andrea is a 2nd or 3rd option offensively at best. He relies far too much on others creating for him. And he's not only 'not the best' rebounder or team defender, he's one of the league's very 'worst'.
          Yaa if he was on a championship caliber team he would be 2nd or 3rd but on this team he is far and away the number 1 option. Right now, he's the only consistent scorer and with Reggie being a rebounding machine he can focus more on the much needed offensive side of the ball.

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          • #35
            RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
            Yaa if he was on a championship caliber team he would be 2nd or 3rd but on this team he is far and away the number 1 option. Right now, he's the only consistent scorer and with Reggie being a rebounding machine he can focus more on the much needed offensive side of the ball.
            If he were on a Championship calibre team he'd be on the bench. Hard to be the 2nd or 3rd option from the bench.
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            • #36
              Offensively, he's too good to be a bench player. The thought of him with Tim Duncan and a Gregg Popovich motivating him gives me a Spurs homer semi.
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              • #37
                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                If he were on a Championship calibre team he'd be on the bench. Hard to be the 2nd or 3rd option from the bench.
                No his offense has improved to the point where he would be at least a 3rd option on a championship caliber team. Once he improves his rebounding which he will he would then become a 3rd option on a championship winning team.

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                • #38
                  Well of course Amir at his best is better than Bargnani on an off day, but its not even close when Bargs is at his best. Not even close.
                  "Don't expect anything unless you give everything."

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                  • #39
                    Captain Haddock wrote: View Post
                    Offensively, he's too good to be a bench player. The thought of him with Tim Duncan and a Gregg Popovich motivating him gives me a Spurs homer semi.
                    Why do people think that guys like Popovich can change a player? Plenty of talented, but flawed players have passed through San Antonio unchanged. Hedo Turkoglu, for one. Drew Gooden passed through quickly. Melvin Ely, who was a lottery pick thought to have lots of potential did nothing in San Antonio.

                    Most of the time, teams like San Antonio simply don't get guys like Bargnani who they "have to" change. San Antonio like their big men to do two things. Rebound and defend. I'm pretty sure they would pass on Bargnani.

                    On a bad team, Bargnani is too good offensively to come off the bench, but on a contender, his defense and rebounding are simply too poor for him to get big minutes. You can't have a guy who's such a liability on the boards and on defense playing big minutes if you want any chance of winning a title. Look at a guy like Kevin Martin. He's a big time scorer, but a horrible defender. And the only time he's been in the playoffs was when he was a bench player who actually did the little things like defend.

                    RaptorRoo wrote: View Post
                    No his offense has improved to the point where he would be at least a 3rd option on a championship caliber team. Once he improves his rebounding which he will he would then become a 3rd option on a championship winning team.
                    Can you name me one starting big man on a Championship team who was a below average defender and rebounder? Go back as far as you want. You won't be able to. There's a reason for that.

                    And WHY do you think Bargnani's rebounding will improve? Because you say so? I don't know of any other big men who have drastically improved their rebounding after four years in the league. There's no indication he will.

                    And he would still be a poor defender.
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                    • #40
                      The statement open ended. It's subjective. It's like saying Derozan at his best is better than Ray Allen. Sure, anyone at their best can be better than most players in the league normally.

                      IF (and that's a huge IF) Johnson can play more than 12-15 minutes a night without picking up 3-4 fouls on a consistent basis, he has a chance of making a big impact, but to this point, he hasn't.

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                      • #41
                        "Andrea IS a legit #1 option on an NBA team. He draws a double team, has a solid post game, can hit three and the mid range jumper as well as any big man in the league. Hes not the best rebounder or team defender (solid one one one defender) - true."

                        Blatant false homerism at its worst....

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                        • #42
                          MangoKid wrote: View Post
                          The statement open ended. It's subjective. It's like saying Derozan at his best is better than Ray Allen. Sure, anyone at their best can be better than most players in the league normally.

                          IF (and that's a huge IF) Johnson can play more than 12-15 minutes a night without picking up 3-4 fouls on a consistent basis, he has a chance of making a big impact, but to this point, he hasn't.
                          Nah Bargnani is 5 seasons IN this is him now...DeRozan hasnt reached his ceiling yet...and comparing DD to Ray Ray is not even close to similar cuz one guys on the way up and ones declining where as bargs and Amir are about similar in terms of there length of service and ceiling comparisons comparitive to each other....its a legit argument...Amir's impact is greater at 12/15 than bargs is at 23/3

                          Try again...

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                          • #43
                            Trife76 wrote: View Post
                            Nah Bargnani is 5 seasons IN this is him now...DeRozan hasnt reached his ceiling yet...and comparing DD to Ray Ray is not even close to similar cuz one guys on the way up and ones declining where as bargs and Amir are about similar in terms of there length of service and ceiling comparisons comparitive to each other....its a legit argument...Amir's impact is greater at 12/15 than bargs is at 23/3

                            Try again...
                            Amir has been in the league longer than Bargnani. And see what you did there, you compared Amir going 12/15 with Bargnani going 23/3. But Bargnani can post 23 points and 3 rebounds any game, he has been averaging around there. On a good day, Bargnani can be great. He has grabbed 17 rebounds in a game once, which means that on a good day he can rebound. He can also score a lot, if we are talking about Bargnani at his best. And in certain games he actually defended really well. You see this whole thread is flawed, because any player at their best are going to be really good, and you can't compare that way. If Amir is going 12/15 on a good day, Bargnani can go for 40 points. I don't get what you are trying to prove here, that Amir on a great night is better than Bargnani on his average night? No shit sherlock.

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                            • #44
                              JoePanini wrote: View Post
                              Amir has been in the league longer than Bargnani. And see what you did there, you compared Amir going 12/15 with Bargnani going 23/3. But Bargnani can post 23 points and 3 rebounds any game, he has been averaging around there. On a good day, Bargnani can be great. He has grabbed 17 rebounds in a game once, which means that on a good day he can rebound. He can also score a lot, if we are talking about Bargnani at his best. And in certain games he actually defended really well. You see this whole thread is flawed, because any player at their best are going to be really good, and you can't compare that way. If Amir is going 12/15 on a good day, Bargnani can go for 40 points. I don't get what you are trying to prove here, that Amir on a great night is better than Bargnani on his average night? No shit sherlock.
                              So much BS in this post ^^^
                              Difference is Amir actually went for 12/15..Bargs has never scored 40 in a game and never will....Im proving and arguing that Amir Johnson is more of an impact player than Bargs at there bests....Bargnani at his best doesnt impact a game like Amir can...

                              hurts dont it ?

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                              • #45
                                Trife76 wrote: View Post
                                So much BS in this post ^^^
                                Difference is Amir actually went for 12/15..Bargs has never scored 40 in a game and never will....Im proving and arguing that Amir Johnson is more of an impact player than Bargs at there bests....Bargnani at his best doesnt impact a game like Amir can...

                                hurts dont it ?
                                Um dude. Bargnani has gone 12/15 so many times already. You see Bargnani hasn't gone for 40 yet, but Amir has only had maybe 5 games like that one. How many big impact games has Bargnani had? And what bs are you talking about? I really am curious.

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