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Thread: Johnson Needs to Supplant Evans in Starting Role

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    Default Johnson Needs to Supplant Evans in Starting Role

    The title says it all. If you have watched the last few games you will see our rebounding is solid, but our offense is faltering. Turnovers are also an issue.

    When I think of ball bobbling, butter fingered moves, I think of Reggie. I love the guy, he is a rebounding machine, BUT, what does he do with the rebs?

    He is a void on offense as well. Last night Jack twice tried to feed him down low- both times he bobbled the ball and lost it to the other team. He misses wide open layups and dunks. He is a big time liablity down low.

    Personally, i would be fine if Amir pulled down 50% less boards then Reg but added a bunch of scoring. He is a beast on pick and roll and has some great transition ability to finish at the rim.

    We signed him for big dough for a reason, lets get this roster right and put Amir in the starting seat.

    Sidenote- what happens when Davis comes back? That could could be a beast down low as well.

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    I guess you missed the last game... our rebounding has been solid because of Reggie Evans. Once teams start making it part of their gameplan to box him out, we quickly become the rebounding team of yesteryears.

    Unless Amir can provide a similar rebounding rate as Reggie Evans, inserting him into the lineup only adds length and speed. While the length is certainly a welcome addition, the first unit plays a slower half-court offense. Amir is much better suited to the second unit.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    I guess you missed the last game... our rebounding has been solid because of Reggie Evans. Once teams start making it part of their gameplan to box him out, we quickly become the rebounding team of yesteryears.

    Unless Amir can provide a similar rebounding rate as Reggie Evans, inserting him into the lineup only adds length and speed. While the length is certainly a welcome addition, the first unit plays a slower half-court offense. Amir is much better suited to the second unit.
    You my friend are a Kool-Aid drinker.

    Rebounding is no doubt important, but scoring and team defense are more important

    Bargnani and Johnson are better on defense than Bargnani and Evans because Johnson give a lot better weak side help than Evans does and because Johnson is longer and can alter more shots than Evans.

    Evans is pretty good defender in short spurts but he is a career 19 mpg guy over 9 seasons in the NBA. He just can't handle over 20 mpg and be effective as a defender.

    On offense he is a horrible liability.

    I am not saying that Johnson should start so people should not think I am going there.

    What I am saying is that Evans should not.

    If people don't like Johnson starting then start Kleiza at PF and Weems at SF. Kleiza can defend the #4 probably better than the #3 and his rebounding will go up if he plays closer to the basket on defense.

    I am not saying that Kleiza should start either.

    However there are a lot better options than Evans.

    Evans Kool Aid drinkers think that if Evans goes off the court the Raptors world will fall apart.

    Last night the Raptors significantly outscored the Warriors when Evans was off the court.

    He was a minus 19 and the Raptors lost only by 7. So they were a plus 12 when he was off the court.
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You my friend are a Kool-Aid drinker.

    Rebounding is no doubt important, but scoring and team defense are more important

    Bargnani and Johnson are better on defense than Bargnani and Evans because Johnson give a lot better weak side help than Evans does and because Johnson is longer and can alter more shots than Evans.

    Evans is pretty good defender in short spurts but he is a career 19 mpg guy over 9 seasons in the NBA. He just can't handle over 20 mpg and be effective as a defender.

    On offense he is a horrible liability.

    I am not saying that Johnson should start so people should not think I am going there.

    What I am saying is that Evans should not.

    If people don't like Johnson starting then start Kleiza at PF and Weems at SF. Kleiza can defend the #4 probably better than the #3 and his rebounding will go up if he plays closer to the basket on defense.

    I am not saying that Kleiza should start either.

    However there are a lot better options than Evans.

    Evans Kool Aid drinkers think that if Evans goes off the court the Raptors world will fall apart.

    Last night the Raptors significantly outscored the Warriors when Evans was off the court.

    He was a minus 19 and the Raptors lost only by 7. So they were a plus 12 when he was off the court.
    This is what I wrote a few days ago:

    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I too am excited. We are no longer Bosh-centric and that is a massive plus. Here are my suggested tweaks (this may garner anger but what the heck):

    1. Calderon back to the line-up. Clearly the scoring difficulties needs to be addressed. We're falling behind in too many first quarters to date. The Raps' defence depends on how well they score. If they don't score, their defensive success is affected (this is a team that dwells on misses as seen from their transition defence).

    2. Given Calderon's relationship with Johnson, he should start as well. This is by no means a knock on Reggie but he needs to come off the bench (the team is burning him out). We need Johnson for interior scoring (since Bargs is allergic down low). Too many teams are ignoring Reggie as a scoring option. Both him and Jack is required for energy purposes on the second unit.

    3. Weems need to start. Kleiza is being asked too much to start. His mobility is not as great (Batum pretty much exposed him for that). Again, not a knock on Kleiza but he is a small 4 not a pure SF. As a member of the second unit, he can be scoring option # 1. Weems is more mobile and can stretch the floor as well.

    Here's my tweaked line-up. Also, I think they're team defense is improving.

    PG - Calderon
    SG - Derozan
    SF - Weems
    PF - Johnson
    C - Bargnani

    PS> I'm not a Young Ones fan but given we're 1-5, we gotta try this line-up.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    I like ur starting line alot

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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    This is what I wrote a few days ago:
    I think you are absolutely right with this unit starting. The only thing that worries me about Weems taking Kleiza's spot is that Kleiza is a better 3 point shooter, and can post up when needed, but no question it is a better unit than what we start right now. Bargs is sometimes double and triple teamed because Evans is so useless offensively. Amir would make the offense better for everyone.

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    Quote Pizzaman wrote: View Post
    I think you are absolutely right with this unit starting. The only thing that worries me about Weems taking Kleiza's spot is that Kleiza is a better 3 point shooter, and can post up when needed, but no question it is a better unit than what we start right now. Bargs is sometimes double and triple teamed because Evans is so useless offensively. Amir would make the offense better for everyone.
    27% 3-pt FG and 40% FG is a better 3 point shooter and the fact that Kleiza does not cause charging fouls or travel when he is dribbling should be the reason, he starts ahead of Weems(note the sarcasm). Weems should be starting as he can hit mid-range shots at a decent clip and plays defense(matchup defense with fast PGs if we are also having problems with opponent PGs). I would take that as a coach over an inconsistent 3 point shooting, unforced turnovers created and laterally challenged player. The starting lineup in my view should be Jack, Derozan, Weems(if he is playing no defense or passing the ball, bench him for Kleiza for offensive purposes or Wright for defensive purposes), Johnson and Bargs or a lineup of Jack, Derozan, Weems, Kleiza and Johnson for a small lineup.

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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You my friend are a Kool-Aid drinker.

    Rebounding is no doubt important, but scoring and team defense are more important

    Bargnani and Johnson are better on defense than Bargnani and Evans because Johnson give a lot better weak side help than Evans does and because Johnson is longer and can alter more shots than Evans.

    Evans is pretty good defender in short spurts but he is a career 19 mpg guy over 9 seasons in the NBA. He just can't handle over 20 mpg and be effective as a defender.

    On offense he is a horrible liability.

    I am not saying that Johnson should start so people should not think I am going there.

    What I am saying is that Evans should not.

    If people don't like Johnson starting then start Kleiza at PF and Weems at SF. Kleiza can defend the #4 probably better than the #3 and his rebounding will go up if he plays closer to the basket on defense.

    I am not saying that Kleiza should start either.

    However there are a lot better options than Evans.

    Evans Kool Aid drinkers think that if Evans goes off the court the Raptors world will fall apart.

    Last night the Raptors significantly outscored the Warriors when Evans was off the court.

    He was a minus 19 and the Raptors lost only by 7. So they were a plus 12 when he was off the court.
    Buddahfan
    I could not say it any better!!!
    MultiPaul is right here, and Evans should not start. I love his energy, his enthusiasm, and his determination to hunt down boards, but Amir has most of the same qualities with a few more thrown in. I was and am thinking Evans is being showcased to shop around but it's now time because other than what I mentioned above he pretty much has no other skills.
    Amir and Bargnani play much better together, and watching every defense give Evans 8 feet when he has the ball is a joke, and makes the defense tighter for the others which is an intangible people do not take into account. I even like the Kleiza, Weems thing better.
    It might also allow Jose to replace Jack which makes for a much better starting lineup and a more balanced bench.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Liston's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    Rebounding is no doubt important, but scoring and team defense are more important
    Rebounding is absolutely critical in preventing second chance points and creating them. 50% of shots are missed - how is rebounding NOT as important as "scoring and team defense"?!

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    Quote Liston wrote: View Post
    Rebounding is absolutely critical in preventing second chance points and creating them. 50% of shots are missed - how is rebounding NOT as important as "scoring and team defense"?!
    Go look at the teams that have won the NBA title over the last decade or more. They have almost without exception been one of if the top FG% shooting team in the league. Whereas although most of them have ranked fairly high in rebounding it has not been as consistently high as shooting.

    You have to be able to shoot to score. You can rebound from now until the cows come home but if you can't shoot you won't score.

    FG% and taking care of the ball are more important to winning than rebounding. If you don't turn the ball over and shoot better than your opponents you will win a lot more often then you lose, then if you are out shot by your opponents and turn the ball over regardless of the rebounds. For example as I recall in the last game the Raptors gave up 21 points off of turnovers. That is a lot more than they gave up due to second chance points.

    When the Pacers scored 144 points the other night and blew out Denver they didn't do it because of rebounding they did it because they shot the heck out of the ball.

    The object of the game is to put the ball in the basket not grab the missed shots.

    Having said that, a team does have to rebound to be really good. But if a team shoots better than their opponents, takes care of the ball and forces turnovers they will win the majority of their games even if they are out rebounded the majority of the time.

    The key is to be plus in FG% and plus in points off of turnovers. Being plus in second chance points is also good but that is impacted by FG% and turnovers. For example If you grab a rebound but then turn it over what good does it do? If you grab a rebound but then miss the shot afterwards you don't get any points. Whereas if you made the original shot you wouldn't have to worry about grabbing the offensive rebound.

    For example the top five teams in FG% differential before tonight were

    Dallas
    New Orleans
    Miami
    Los Angeles
    Atlanta

    The top five in rebounding differential before tonight were

    Orlando
    Chicago
    Minn
    Toronto
    Dallas

    The Won Loss record of the first group was 31 - 9 or .775

    The Won Loss record of the second group was 17 - 21 or .425


    Now lets compare the records of the bottom six in FG% and rebounding differential. I chose six here because the Raptors are the sixth worst shooting team in terms of FG% differential

    Six worst FG% differential

    Toronto
    Wash
    N.Y.
    Det.
    OK
    Minn

    Six worst rebounding differential

    Cleve
    Den
    Det
    Phoenix
    Wash
    Memphis


    The Won Loss record of the first group was 14 - 32 or .304

    The Won Loss record of the second group was 19 - 27 or .413


    So we see from above that the top teams in FG% differential have a better combined record than the top teams in rebounding differential

    The bottom teams in FG% differential have a worst combined record than the bottom teams in rebounding differential




    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/by..._2010&sort=233
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Fri Nov 12th, 2010 at 01:27 AM.
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    Ok bucko, have you noticed that we have out rebounded our opponents, YET still lost. If Reg rebounds down low on the offensive end he is 50% of the time useless. Dude can't even make a layup. Our rebounding has not brought us victories, we need defensive stops. If he was blocking 4+ shots per game i would agree he is legendary, but all he offers is rebounding confounded by sheer lack of "grip" on the pumpkin.

    I was at the Cleveland game. Reg got an off reb down low. He looked helpless. He literally threw the ball straight up directly in the air...like...not at the basket...straight up.... my gf who knows little about hoops proclaimed " i dont think he's supposed to do that".

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    Maybe if you'd stop your Kool-Aid nonsense for a bit, you'd realize that if we feature Reggie a bit more, we could possibly get a better deal for him. Johnson's already locked up and the first big off the bench. He's good in that role for now.

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    Buddy...I care about WINS. I am a fan of the team and the players DESERVE a win and soon. They shouldnt be f***ed over by management trying to showcase their mediocre talent like Evans for future trade considerations.

    Bargs and Johnson work much better in tandem, and Amir can be a legit scoring presence down low. He needs more starting minutes. I like the idea above of Kleiza at the 4 as well.

    Am I the only one who is tired of watching Triano put out ridiculous lineups in times of desperation. We need to start Amir and for that matter Barbosa to give us an immediate offensive advantage and build leads. Tired of watching us dig ourselves out of holes.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Buddy...I care about WINS. I am a fan of the team and the players DESERVE a win and soon. They shouldnt be f***ed over by management trying to showcase their mediocre talent like Evans for future trade considerations.

    Bargs and Johnson work much better in tandem, and Amir can be a legit scoring presence down low. He needs more starting minutes. I like the idea above of Kleiza at the 4 as well.

    Am I the only one who is tired of watching Triano put out ridiculous lineups in times of desperation. We need to start Amir and for that matter Barbosa to give us an immediate offensive advantage and build leads. Tired of watching us dig ourselves out of holes.
    You're not getting wins this year. Sorry. Just ain't happening. If you were expecting this team to come close to the playoffs, you're going to be really disappointed.

    It sucks that we're losing, but I don't believe that if we canned Triano in favour of someone else that the light would automatically turn on and we'd play better. The talent just isn't there.. yet. Amir needs to be eased into that starting role if you're going to start him. He's still foul-prone. ANd to start jumping on Barbosa to be giving you more offense - the guy is playing with a badly hurt wrist that needs surgery. The guy can hardly shoot.

    We're at least a couple of years away from being competitive enough to reach the playoffs and make some noise.

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    Okay, Amir needs to start ahead of Evans. THAT IS COMPLETELY UP TO AMIR. As for wanting to start Reggie, that is just outrageous. It's different having to start Reggie, but now people want to start him? Yes he can rebounds, and he looks like an awesome caveman, but he is more of a liability on everything apart rebounding, yes his offense is worse than Bargnani's defense. We need Amir to start. And putting him on to boost trade value doesn't really work. GM's aren't idiots. If we trade him, it will be to a contender, and contenders only trade scrap pieces so most likely we won't get anything unless we decide to take on another bad contract. Reggie is in his final year, let it expire then re-sign him ala Jerome James :P

    If anyone really thinks starting Reggie over Amir is right, you gotta get yourself checked. If Amir can stay on court, he can rebound just as well as Reggie, and with Amir on the court it gives more room for Andrea, DeMar and whoever else is on the court, because with Reggie we played 4 on 5 offense, which killed us.

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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    Okay, Amir needs to start ahead of Evans. THAT IS COMPLETELY UP TO AMIR. As for wanting to start Reggie, that is just outrageous. It's different having to start Reggie, but now people want to start him? Yes he can rebounds, and he looks like an awesome caveman, but he is more of a liability on everything apart rebounding, yes his offense is worse than Bargnani's defense. We need Amir to start. And putting him on to boost trade value doesn't really work. GM's aren't idiots. If we trade him, it will be to a contender, and contenders only trade scrap pieces so most likely we won't get anything unless we decide to take on another bad contract. Reggie is in his final year, let it expire then re-sign him ala Jerome James :P

    If anyone really thinks starting Reggie over Amir is right, you gotta get yourself checked. If Amir can stay on court, he can rebound just as well as Reggie, and with Amir on the court it gives more room for Andrea, DeMar and whoever else is on the court, because with Reggie we played 4 on 5 offense, which killed us.
    +100%

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    An awesome caveman...That was awesome!

    I agree with u man. Furthermore, Amir's skillset will only blossom with more playing time in the starting, high pressure role. Let him earn his bucks. There is no way in hell some dude like Demar deserves to start if Amir can't. Hell i personally think Weems should be starting as well.

    Amir might not look like a caveman, but he looks kinda like that japanese Monchichi monkey faced cartoon, but only the tattooed ghetto crack addict for -a-mama version

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    An awesome caveman...That was awesome!

    I agree with u man. Furthermore, Amir's skillset will only blossom with more playing time in the starting, high pressure role. Let him earn his bucks. There is no way in hell some dude like Demar deserves to start if Amir can't. Hell i personally think Weems should be starting as well.
    Why shouldn't Demar start? Who's better to start at the 2-guard than Demar? Barbosa's hurting. Weems is okay, but not better than Demar.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Why shouldn't Demar start? Who's better to start at the 2-guard than Demar? Barbosa's hurting. Weems is okay, but not better than Demar.
    I would take a hurting Barbo over Demar starting. He can give us an instant offensive burst and hopefully a lead. I would also take Weems but I think he might be better as a 3 instead of a 2. Demar makes too many mistakes still and always leaves his man on D. Last night GSW made him pay. He does not deserve to start. We need someone with more poise and patience. Demar could explode in a bench role.

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I would take a hurting Barbo over Demar starting. He can give us an instant offensive burst and hopefully a lead. I would also take Weems but I think he might be better as a 3 instead of a 2. Demar makes too many mistakes still and always leaves his man on D. Last night GSW made him pay. He does not deserve to start. We need someone with more poise and patience. Demar could explode in a bench role.
    Barbosa can hardly shoot as it is - and it shows. He should be going in for his surgery. As it is right now, Demar's had to guard Tyreke Evans, Kobe, Brandon Roy, Monta Ellis. Cut the guy some slack!

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