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Thread: Harrison Barnes Draft!!!

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    They are in last place (well, they're actually tied with 5 other teams for last place) because they simply aren't a talented team. It was nice that you were optimistic before the season started, but there was no way this team was ever going to win much more than 30 wins with the roster they have.

    And Triano is starting Reggie for two reasons. One is that he's the only Raptor on the roster who can make up for Bargnani's rebounding deficiencies, and he's also a placeholder for Ed Davis. Reggie Evans isn't as great as some fans seem to think, but he's certainly not the reason the Raptors are losing games.
    You are fixated on the wrong numbers.

    The only numbers that count is whether or not you out score your opponents. Getting more rebounds is one thing that helps but if you aren't doing the other things you need to do to out score your opponents you will lose. It is is as simple as that.

    Since you seem to be hung up on the rebounds.

    Please tell us all.

    1. How many rebounds less per game the Raptors will get if Evans comes off the bench rather than starts.
    2. Than translate those rebounds into points.
    3. Then factor in all of the other things that other players can do better than him against the extra points he gets because of his rebounding as as starter.

    I would love to see you calculations.

    The only numbers that count are the points that your teams scores vs the points that your opponents score. Saying that Raptors would be worse without him starting not only can't be proven but is wrong in my opinion.

    The Raptors were 3 - 0 last season against lottery teams with this starting lineup.

    Barganani
    Johnson
    Calderon
    DeRozan
    Turkoglu

    Do you really think that Turk last season was that much better than Kleiza?
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  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    It doesn't always take a year or two. Tyreke, B. Jennings, Blake Griffin, and John Wall prove this.
    You can't compare apples and oranges and talent vs potential greatness.

    Wall, Jennings and T. Evans all control the ball when they are on the court so they are masters of their own scoring destiny. Yes they are all better than DeRozan but how many other teams passed on Jennings? Evans and Wall were drafted higher than DeRozan for good reason.

    Secondly, DeRozan will become a good NBA player, Griffin is already an all-star level player. If he stays healthy he will be one of the best, if not the best of his generation. No one has ever sanely claimed that DeRozan is as good or as near as good as Griffin. Only a Kool-aid drinker would do that.
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  3. #23
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    Kyrie Iving is the best in the draft...in my opinion

    There is no number 1 consensus yet.

  4. #24
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    And what would Crawford do? He is 30 years old and looking for his last contract. His first time in the playoffs was last season. He is a bench player on a good team - not a great team. The only way Crawford is useful is as an expiring contract.
    oh ok, sorry, i guess we should be aiming for something bigger then. how about we make a play for carmelo? or maybe bosh again since he's come out and said "i get lost out there" playing with D-wade and Lebron. Or shit, while we're at this, maybe BC should make an offer for Chris Paul, Dwight Howard and Rondo. Realistically speaking.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote JoePanini wrote: View Post
    LOL. Trade Kleiza, Anderson, Calderon and Bargnani who have all been playing pretty decently, for Jamal. Nice.
    Kleiza - 12pts, 3 rebs, 1 ast GUARD-FORWARD
    Anderson - 4 / 3 / 0.7
    Calderon - 6 / 2 / 5
    Bargnani - 19 / 4 / 1 Franchise player, CENTER

    oh yeah. theyre all playing decently.

    Yeah trade all 4 for Jamal's 10mil salary. that makes absolute sense. if that what you think i was implying. str8 up 4-1 trade. try it on espn trade machine. or nba live.

  6. #26
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You are fixated on the wrong numbers.

    The only numbers that count is whether or not you out score your opponents. Getting more rebounds is one thing that helps but if you aren't doing the other things you need to do to out score your opponents you will lose. It is is as simple as that.

    Since you seem to be hung up on the rebounds.

    Please tell us all.

    1. How many rebounds less per game the Raptors will get if Evans comes off the bench rather than starts.
    2. Than translate those rebounds into points.
    3. Then factor in all of the other things that other players can do better than him against the extra points he gets because of his rebounding as as starter.

    I would love to see you calculations.

    The only numbers that count are the points that your teams scores vs the points that your opponents score. Saying that Raptors would be worse without him starting not only can't be proven but is wrong in my opinion.

    The Raptors were 3 - 0 last season against lottery teams with this starting lineup.

    Barganani
    Johnson
    Calderon
    DeRozan
    Turkoglu

    Do you really think that Turk last season was that much better than Kleiza?
    I'm not fixated on rebounds, but the fact is that Bargnani is a liability on the boards and on the defensive end and Reggie makes up for that. Is it the perfect solution? Hell no, but it's one of a few possibilities. There's no right or wrong solution. Having Amir start means that the bench would have problems scoring. Triano obviously believes that pairing Reggie and Bargnani make up for each other's weaknesses, while no compromising the bench.

    I think when Ed Davis eventually moves into the starting lineup, it will improve.

    As for the team's record with that starting lineup, are you really going to make judgements based on such a small sample size? Also, DeRozan only started one of those games. Weems started the other two, and Calderon started one. In fact of the three wins where Johnson started, not one lineup happened more than once.

    Also, since when do the starters decide whether or not a team wins? How many times last season did the Raptors get behind by double digits in the first quarter only to be saved by the bench? And the starters had Bosh AND Bargnani in the starting lineup.
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    Quote KakashiPrince wrote: View Post
    Kyrie Iving is the best in the draft...in my opinion

    There is no number 1 consensus yet.
    Really, because all the draft sites list Harrison Barnes as the consensus #1 pick at this point. Obviously that may change, but right now it's Barnes.

    I think the worst thing the Raptors can do is be fixated on a PG because it's a position where the team often struggles, at least defensively.
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  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Jamaal Crawford? Really? THAT'S your solution? No thanks.

    And why are you clumping all those players together? Because they're European? That's pretty narrow-minded. Kleiza certainly isn't soft and is one of the tougher players on the team. He initiates contact probably more than any other Raptor. And Andersen? He hasn't shown to be soft. I just think you're incredibly biased, and pretty much wrong.

    As for rookies, some rookies take longer than others, but trying to find a quick solution isn't going to do the franchise any good. You'r obviously simply hoping for a mediocre team immediately rather than a very good one down the road. Personally, I'd rather be patient and build the right way.
    Not a solution, but its a start. Crawford averaged 18pts last year playing behind Joe Johnson. imagine what he can do if he's a starter and playing 35mins a game.

    Nope, not because theyre european. see my earlier post.

    i dont think the fan-base share your sentiments. being patient and building the right way might take 1-10 years. i was listening to paul jones and eric smith last night after the game and one guy called in and said the raps should just keep losing to get a high pick next draft. these 2 basketball experts said that draft is a "luck of the draw". cant be even 60% sure with the draft. getting an experienced baller is a little bit safer way to go dont you think?

  9. #29
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    Personally it seems that looking forward to the draft and following top-tier talent is not a negative as a Raptors fan. If we are intentionally cheering against the team in the hope of getting better talent, then that is a little weak. This year is not necessarily about winning lots of games...this year is about starting some development in different areas. Lets see what Andrea can do, lets see how Demar develops, hopefully lets see what Ed Davis can bring to the table, lets see if Amir can learn to play with a bit more control (less fouls), etc.

    If our young guys are getting an opportunities to develop and we are losing, then that is just fine. Losing and moving backwards are not the same things. If we were to try to patch together a team using some trade chips and the TPE to get some overpaid veterans for the short term...then that is moving backwards.

    I am of course cheering for the Raptors to win every single game...but I would rather us lose in the short term in order to gain in the long term, then win in the short term and damage our long term assets.

    Hopefully we can use one or two of our expiring contracts (Banks $4.75 million, Barbosa $7.6 million (player option for next year), and Evans $5.08 million) to gain another young asset and a pick.

    Assuming things continue the way they currently are, it is likely that we would have a high draft pick of our own. If we are able to gain another first round pick through expiring contracts, it might be possible to move that along with Miami's first rounder to move up in the draft.

    These are all long shots and may not be entirely possible, but with two high draft picks added to our young core we could have a solid group to develop together. And then, after the draft, would be the time to use the TPE. No quick fixes that will hurt us in the long run.

    Going through the draft is not a sure thing, but neither is going through free agency. This summer everyone was praising what the Bucks did in going out and adding to their team. Currently the Bucks are 2-5. I am certainly not saying that they will stay that way (they should certainly improve), but adding pieces through free agency is no guarantee either.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    It doesn't always take a year or two. Tyreke, B. Jennings, Blake Griffin, and John Wall prove this.
    oh yeah, sorry i forgot those

    tyreke - ROY, kings? bottom feeders
    jennings - playoffs 1st round exit
    griffin - clippers? yikes
    john wall - 1 win in 6 games
    oh and you forgot d. rose - barely made the playoffs last year.

    developing is not just scoring pts and putting up stats. developing is being able to create chemistry with your teammates, knowing when to pass or shoot, making your teammates better. case and point, kevin durant. started out with a good year, monster sophomore then playoffs taking the lakers to game 7. now thats development. how many years? 3.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    sorry but im not a procrastinator, and relying on the draft is procrastinating. for those who dont know what it means, it means putting off something you can do today, at a later day. maybe because of laziness, or just because you dont want to do it.

    elite teams dont let the season go to waste and rely on the draft, some might have gotten lucky, but they dont "aim" at scoring big in the draft. thats a recipe for disaster. tell me when the lakers, celtics, spurs, mavs last got a top ten pick in the past couple of years? and then there's the nets and new york letting a season go down the toilet clearing cap space and hoping to score big on the draft. nuff said.

  12. #32
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    It's about being creative. There's gonna be a lockout on the horizon and it may go in the direction of a hard cap like the NHL (personally, I think it should do this route). Teams like the Celtics, Magic and Lakers are gonna be screwed because they're gonna be so far above that cap number.

    You don't want to suck for so many years, but 2 more drafts (at lottery picks) should lay the foundation for a contending team (Davis and DeRozan are already decent pieces). Add some 2nd rounders and FAs in there and you should be successful.

    Colangelo has a pretty decent eye for talent in the draft, so I'd put my faith in him in respect to that.

  13. #33
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    sorry but im not a procrastinator, and relying on the draft is procrastinating. for those who dont know what it means, it means putting off something you can do today, at a later day. maybe because of laziness, or just because you dont want to do it.

    elite teams dont let the season go to waste and rely on the draft, some might have gotten lucky, but they dont "aim" at scoring big in the draft. thats a recipe for disaster. tell me when the lakers, celtics, spurs, mavs last got a top ten pick in the past couple of years? and then there's the nets and new york letting a season go down the toilet clearing cap space and hoping to score big on the draft. nuff said.
    The Celtics tanked in 2007 in order to try to get Kevin Durant/Greg Oden. The lottery balls did not fall their way and they were gifted both KG and Ray Allen. New York was not tanking for a draft pick...they were tanking to clear money from years of overspending on free agents. It was actually free agency that New York was trying to get involved in. They were getting rid of salary in order to try to make a run at Lebron and Wade.

    What fans looking towards the draft are hoping for is a situation like the Thunder. I am hoping that if the season is going to be filled with loses, might as well benefit from it. This is in no way advocating for the Raptors to tank...but if they end up losing lots that is not necessarily a bad thing in the long term.

    How are we as fans too impatient to watch a team develop for several years? Why do we need results now? Comparing the Raptors to teams like the Lakers and Celtics is unrealistic...they are in great positions and all they need to do is tinker. We are in a rebuilding place...and that is not as bad as it seems.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm not fixated on rebounds, but the fact is that Bargnani is a liability on the boards and on the defensive end and Reggie makes up for that. Is it the perfect solution? Hell no, but it's one of a few possibilities. There's no right or wrong solution. Having Amir start means that the bench would have problems scoring. Triano obviously believes that pairing Reggie and Bargnani make up for each other's weaknesses, while no compromising the bench.

    I think when Ed Davis eventually moves into the starting lineup, it will improve.

    As for the team's record with that starting lineup, are you really going to make judgements based on such a small sample size? Also, DeRozan only started one of those games. Weems started the other two, and Calderon started one. In fact of the three wins where Johnson started, not one lineup happened more than once.

    Also, since when do the starters decide whether or not a team wins? How many times last season did the Raptors get behind by double digits in the first quarter only to be saved by the bench? And the starters had Bosh AND Bargnani in the starting lineup.
    You are fixated on the rebounds your answer above proves it.

    You could be correct about Davis, but trying to hold the fort at the starting PF spot by a guy who can't do anything well except rebound and grab crotches is a bit too much. Yes Reggie's defense is pretty good but overall his defense is a step down from Johnson's and maybe even Kleiza at the #4.

    All of those guys that you mentioned are still with the team. The one constant other than Johnson starting was that Reggie did not.

    Two things we know for sure about Davis are

    1. He has only played about 75 minutes of organized basketball since last February and that was in the LVSL.

    2. Davis got pushed around by the bigger PF's in the LVSL.

    I am not saying that Davis is a better choice or not a better choice than Johnson to supplant Evans as the starting PF. What I am saying is that we have seen some positive results when Johnson has started including the Raptors close loss to the Hawks in Atlanta whereas in the game before in Atlanta with Bosh starting the Raptors got blown out. Yes, Johnson still gets outplayed something fierce by guys like Noah/Gibson. I am not denying that.

    We don't really know squat how well Davis' game will translate into the NBA regular season play, especially in 10-11 after missing all of the pre-season.

    Still, all in all the Raptors management may see Johnson as a career bench rotation guy. Nothing wrong with that.

    But seeing Reggie as a starter at this point in his career with the other options that the Raptors have available is insanity in my opinion.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Nov 9th, 2010 at 03:25 PM.
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  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    @shantz

    like i said, developing players is ok, and its a fixture in the nba, but you dont develop players at the expense of losing.

    youre talking about andrea, derozan, davis and amir. thats 4 guys. there are 11 other guys on the team. what are you going to do with the other 11? help the other 4 develop? if youre an nba player, trying to earn your living playing a contract, and the coach or GM tells you, lets develop tbihis, how the heck are you going to feel? after 2 years these 4 guys are all developed and youve been supporting them all those years, whats gonna happen to your career? these guys are paid to play to win. not to help develop other players. well unless your darrick martin.

    if losing is not moving backwards, its not moving forward either.

    for you as a fan, yeah losing is ok. but for the team, that sucks. who would watch a crappy team? who would want to play for a crappy team? ticket prices will go down, superstars stay away. looked what happened to seattle? do you think they thought about hey, lets keep up this losing streak and maybe in two years durant will be a beast and then we'll make profits. not gonna work, unless you have a crystal ball. and look whats gonna happen to the nets. not winning? moving to brooklyn.

    i think adding pieces from free agency and trades has a higher upside than waiting on the draft, dont you think? trades and FA, you know what youre getting. nba experience, can play the grind of 82 games, talent level is on paper. draft? 31 games a year, no nba experience.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm not fixated on rebounds, but the fact is that Bargnani is a liability on the boards and on the defensive end and Reggie makes up for that. Is it the perfect solution? Hell no, but it's one of a few possibilities. There's no right or wrong solution. Having Amir start means that the bench would have problems scoring. Triano obviously believes that pairing Reggie and Bargnani make up for each other's weaknesses, while no compromising the bench.

    I think when Ed Davis eventually moves into the starting lineup, it will improve.

    As for the team's record with that starting lineup, are you really going to make judgements based on such a small sample size? Also, DeRozan only started one of those games. Weems started the other two, and Calderon started one. In fact of the three wins where Johnson started, not one lineup happened more than once.

    Also, since when do the starters decide whether or not a team wins? How many times last season did the Raptors get behind by double digits in the first quarter only to be saved by the bench? And the starters had Bosh AND Bargnani in the starting lineup.
    Calderon actually started in the last 4 games of last season. I didn't bother to check DeRozan and Weems.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Nov 9th, 2010 at 04:12 PM.
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  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Shantz wrote: View Post
    The Celtics tanked in 2007 in order to try to get Kevin Durant/Greg Oden. The lottery balls did not fall their way and they were gifted both KG and Ray Allen. New York was not tanking for a draft pick...they were tanking to clear money from years of overspending on free agents. It was actually free agency that New York was trying to get involved in. They were getting rid of salary in order to try to make a run at Lebron and Wade.

    What fans looking towards the draft are hoping for is a situation like the Thunder. I am hoping that if the season is going to be filled with loses, might as well benefit from it. This is in no way advocating for the Raptors to tank...but if they end up losing lots that is not necessarily a bad thing in the long term.

    How are we as fans too impatient to watch a team develop for several years? Why do we need results now? Comparing the Raptors to teams like the Lakers and Celtics is unrealistic...they are in great positions and all they need to do is tinker. We are in a rebuilding place...and that is not as bad as it seems.
    i think you just proved my point there. tanking/losing season will not get you a big score in the draft. trades and FA will. celtics, IYO tanked to get a good spot in the draft, well, that didnt work for them. but they managed to get Allen and Garnett. So you think if they scored big with oden or durant do you think theyll have a championship the following year??

    The Thunder phenomenon is what it is, a phenomenon. You think if Portland took Durant, and oden went to seattle, you think theyd have the same season as theyre having now? It was pretty clear that time that if Seattle had the 1st pick, they were going to take oden. Its all luck my friend. Just so happened Durant fell on their lap as well as westbrook.

    well you may not be impatient, but i dont think the other 10,000+ thousand who buy tickets share the same sentiments. i dont have the stats but im pretty sure when the raps were bottom feeders, tickets were as accessible as starbucks in the states. you can get them everywhere, but nobody really wants them. how do you think the lakers and celts built their current teams? by relying on the draft? garnett's deal was lopsided, and so was gasol's if BC was that good, why cant he work on a deal like that? like you said, the celtics "tanked" before they scored allen and garnett, kobe and the lakers didnt even make the playoffs a year before they landed gasol. how is not that the same situation with the raps? BC is the key man here. if he was able to trade a araujo, getting a superstar here should be a walk in the park.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    i can live with them trying win, but sucking too much to do so, and getting a high draft pick. fine

    purposely tanking is for losers. if you condone it, you're a douche.

    i have no desire to watch millionaires who get paid to play a game for a living TRY to lose games. If the raps ever did that, i wouldnt support them ever again.

    i can deal with losing... i cant deal with losers.

  19. #39
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    @tbihis

    You make a compelling argument. Trades and FA are certainly a huge component of the game. And no player should be asked to intentionally lose in order to boost up the teams draft value. I agree with you 100% in that department. But to completely ignore the importance that the draft can play in a teams building process is equally negligent.

    You are right; you never know what you are going to get through the draft. But the same can be said through free agency and through trades. I do not like Hedo due to his work ethic...but Phoenix took him through a trade due to the exact same reasons you are giving. Phoenix thought that in Hedo they "knew what they were getting. NBA experience, can play the grind of 82 games, talent level is on paper." Sure, that was a bigger misrepresentation of talent then normal, but that is what they thought. As Raptor fans, we knew what the Suns were getting because we watched him for a year. But every summer there is a team that talks themselves into a trade/signing because they think a veteran can fit in their system well. Sometimes it works out, other times it does not.

    Brandon Bass was supposed to be a game changer in Orlando when they signed him. He was supposed to be a banging PF who would complement Howard and make the Magic even stronger. But he can't beat out Ryan Anderson and has looked (at least for the most part) like a non-factor.


    Trades and FA are not guarantees, just like the draft.

    And as for developing the young guys...we can't ignore the other players. But if we are to bring in a guy like Jamal Crawford (not a fan of that idea that was posted by someone earlier), we are doing the same thing...prioritizing a veteran over a young guy...prioritizing now over tomorrow.

    If a great deal were to come around during the season and give us someone elite, I would love that. But if we are just getting mediocre...I think we can hope for better then that in the long term.

    Even the biggest Boston fans would have to debate whether they would trade their Championships for a chance to have Durant. If we could somehow pull off trades to land 3 great players to carry us...I would jump at that opportunity. But realistically that is just a far off of a chance as securing strong talent in the draft. What are some realistic trades/free agency singing that you would make tbihis that would make this team stronger both for this year and the future?

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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    i can live with them trying win, but sucking too much to do so, and getting a high draft pick. fine

    purposely tanking is for losers.
    I agree fully with you Heinz57

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