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Thread: Harrison Barnes Draft!!!

  1. #41
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Not a solution, but its a start. Crawford averaged 18pts last year playing behind Joe Johnson. imagine what he can do if he's a starter and playing 35mins a game.

    Nope, not because theyre european. see my earlier post.

    i dont think the fan-base share your sentiments. being patient and building the right way might take 1-10 years. i was listening to paul jones and eric smith last night after the game and one guy called in and said the raps should just keep losing to get a high pick next draft. these 2 basketball experts said that draft is a "luck of the draw". cant be even 60% sure with the draft. getting an experienced baller is a little bit safer way to go dont you think?
    How is trading for a 30 year old combo guard in the last year of his contract, who's been to the playoffs once and is not a good defender a start?

    You said this "get workhorses who know how to bang, take contact and finish at the rim." While Kleiza certainly isn't a stellar defender, he is a workhorse who knows how to bang and take contact. If it's his finishing at the rim you have a problem with, why not include Reggie Evans? The guy is currently shooting 24%, and pretty much all from under the basket. And Andersen? He's shown to be good at banging down low. A lot better than I expected.

    As for the fan base, I couldn't care less what they wanted. If the fan base had any say in how things went then the team would change the starting lineup every other game, make trades once a week and have a new coach once a month. They're like a bunch of bi-polar adolescents with attention deficit disorder. Making decisions based on their whims is probably not the best way to go.

    Building through the draft is a gamble, but you never, ever win Championships by playing it safe. Ever. That's the route to mediocrity, which I want absolutely no part of. Currently, there are 3 players which look like possible franchise players projected to be in the draft next season: Barnes, Jones and Irving. That's pretty good odds, to me. Any one of them will probably immediately become the best player on the team.

    And I'm certainly not against trading some players, but definitely not for veterans who might give the Raptors a couple of more wins. The Raptors have a number of pieces that they can use to better themselves. There shouldn't be any hurry. That's the smart thing to do.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm not fixated on rebounds, but the fact is that Bargnani is a liability on the boards and on the defensive end and Reggie makes up for that. Is it the perfect solution? Hell no, but it's one of a few possibilities. There's no right or wrong solution. Having Amir start means that the bench would have problems scoring. Triano obviously believes that pairing Reggie and Bargnani make up for each other's weaknesses, while no compromising the bench.

    I think when Ed Davis eventually moves into the starting lineup, it will improve.

    As for the team's record with that starting lineup, are you really going to make judgements based on such a small sample size? Also, DeRozan only started one of those games. Weems started the other two, and Calderon started one. In fact of the three wins where Johnson started, not one lineup happened more than once.

    Also, since when do the starters decide whether or not a team wins? How many times last season did the Raptors get behind by double digits in the first quarter only to be saved by the bench? And the starters had Bosh AND Bargnani in the starting lineup.
    i actually think amir starting would be better. evans does complement bargs with his rebounding, but some of those rebounds should have been putbacks, 2 pts. even if you rebound 40 times but cant turn it into pts, then there's really no use. amir is good with putbacks and can score inside while bargs works outside, like he always does.

    no nba experience, coming off of knee surgery, no preseason and youre subjecting the kid to the pressure of posting a win after a 1 win start. ouch. when do you exactly expect davis to start?

    last time a checked, starters are mostly the catalyst in wins. you tell me. maybe thats why they put the best players in the starting 5. maybe thats why every player's dream is to be a starter. maybe because being a starter gives you an opportunity to stir your team in a winning direction. but thats just me. when you start, you get momentum. realistically, you starters should be getting at least 35 minutes a game. this splitting minutes thing is not really a good idea....players need a lot of minutes to rev. you cant expect a guy to play 25 minutes and be a beast.

  3. #43
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You are fixated on the rebounds your answer above proves it.

    You could be correct about Davis, but trying to hold the fort at the starting PF spot by a guy who can't do anything well except rebound and grab crotches is a bit too much. Yes Reggie's defense is pretty good but overall his defense is a step down from Johnson's and maybe even Kleiza at the #4.

    All of those guys that you mentioned are still with the team. The one constant other than Johnson starting was that Reggie did not.

    Two things we know for sure about Davis are

    1. He has only played about 75 minutes of organized basketball since last February and that was in the LVSL.

    2. Davis got pushed around by the bigger PF's in the LVSL.

    I am not saying that Davis is a better choice or not a better choice than Johnson to supplant Evans as the starting PF. What I am saying is that we have seen some positive results when Johnson has started including the Raptors close loss to the Hawks in Atlanta whereas in the game before in Atlanta with Bosh starting the Raptors got blown out. Yes, Johnson still gets outplayed something fierce by guys like Noah/Gibson. I am not denying that.

    We don't really know squat how well Davis' game will translate into the NBA regular season play, especially in 10-11 after missing all of the pre-season.

    Still, all in all the Raptors management may see Johnson as a career bench rotation guy. Nothing wrong with that.

    But seeing Reggie as a starter at this point in his career with the other options that the Raptors have available is insanity in my opinion.
    I'm fixated on the things that win games. Scoring, defense and rebounding are the three most important things. My answer proves that I think that you need all three to win. Nothing more. And since my worry with bringing Evans off the bench would hurt the bench scoring, I fail to see how I'm fixated on rebounding.

    If it was up me I'd probably play Bargnani 20 mpg and maybe bring him off the bench, since he's such a liability, and I'd also probably limit Reggie's minutes, too, but the Raptors don't have the luxury of having a lot of well rounded big men. Triano is doing what he can with the pieces he's been given.

    As for Davis, obviously no one knows how his game will translate to the NBA, but that's the deal with every rookie. I like his game enough that I was thrilled when he was drafted and I think he'll eventually be a very good PF. He's got a high basketball IQ, which seems to be rare for this team. I don't think he'll make an immediate impact, but I'm not really worried about that, at the moment.
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  4. #44
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    i actually think amir starting would be better. evans does complement bargs with his rebounding, but some of those rebounds should have been putbacks, 2 pts. even if you rebound 40 times but cant turn it into pts, then there's really no use. amir is good with putbacks and can score inside while bargs works outside, like he always does.

    no nba experience, coming off of knee surgery, no preseason and youre subjecting the kid to the pressure of posting a win after a 1 win start. ouch. when do you exactly expect davis to start?

    last time a checked, starters are mostly the catalyst in wins. you tell me. maybe thats why they put the best players in the starting 5. maybe thats why every player's dream is to be a starter. maybe because being a starter gives you an opportunity to stir your team in a winning direction. but thats just me. when you start, you get momentum. realistically, you starters should be getting at least 35 minutes a game. this splitting minutes thing is not really a good idea....players need a lot of minutes to rev. you cant expect a guy to play 25 minutes and be a beast.
    I'm all for giving Amir more minutes, but I understand the point of bringing him off the bench. People seem to be under the impression that simply starting a guy will change everything. Currently the Raptors have 10 rotation players. Andersen plays the least, with 13 mpg and Bargnani plays the most with 32 mpg. Throwing the best, most well rounded players into the starting lineup will help the starting lineup, but hurt the bench. It's a no win situation. The problem is not who starts, but the fact that the Raptors simply don't have the talent to be able to solve all the problems fans want to. This is a 20-30 win team that has several holes. They're a young team, which is good in the sense that they will hopefully develop and get better, but bad in the sense that young teams struggle more and will find it harder to win.
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  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How is trading for a 30 year old combo guard in the last year of his contract, who's been to the playoffs once and is not a good defender a start?

    You said this "get workhorses who know how to bang, take contact and finish at the rim." While Kleiza certainly isn't a stellar defender, he is a workhorse who knows how to bang and take contact. If it's his finishing at the rim you have a problem with, why not include Reggie Evans? The guy is currently shooting 24%, and pretty much all from under the basket. And Andersen? He's shown to be good at banging down low. A lot better than I expected.

    As for the fan base, I couldn't care less what they wanted. If the fan base had any say in how things went then the team would change the starting lineup every other game, make trades once a week and have a new coach once a month. They're like a bunch of bi-polar adolescents with attention deficit disorder. Making decisions based on their whims is probably not the best way to go.

    Building through the draft is a gamble, but you never, ever win Championships by playing it safe. Ever. That's the route to mediocrity, which I want absolutely no part of. Currently, there are 3 players which look like possible franchise players projected to be in the draft next season: Barnes, Jones and Irving. That's pretty good odds, to me. Any one of them will probably immediately become the best player on the team.

    And I'm certainly not against trading some players, but definitely not for veterans who might give the Raptors a couple of more wins. The Raptors have a number of pieces that they can use to better themselves. There shouldn't be any hurry. That's the smart thing to do.
    oh i dont know, but acquiring a 18pt per game backup who is a capable starter much proven when JJ was injured (25pts, 4reb, 4 ast), a guy who can hit big shots/game winners, who can create his own shot, drive, shoot from the perimeter at almost 50%, who can also shoot the 3, run the break at 30 years old, yes, its a start.

    ive raised my points on kleiza and andersen. sure, include evans.

    fan-base is who keeps the team going. buys tickets, merchandise. i dont think i said let them decide. i said make an effort to win so they wont be pissed. and effort is getting the best players you can get right now, not trying to get lucky when the season is over.

    well, if playing it safe is a mediocrity, then i guess the celts acquiring allen and garnett and winning a championship, lakers getting gasol, ariza and now artest and winning a championship, atlanta getting joe johnson as an FA and making the playoffs, i guess you might consider those achievements as mediocre, since these teams decided to go on a "safe" route and acquire proven nba players. oh and now the heat getting lbj and bosh, proven nba talents as well, could potentially win championships as well. if those you consider as mediocrity, wow, youre a hard man to please!

    i mean if youre thinking that acquiring ONLY crawford is the solution just because i suggested him then i think we've all been smoking something here. if you want me to detail everything for you then, here goes, crawford can be one of the players they acquire but they have to acquire others. the point is, they need to acquire good players now, not wait for the draft.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Nov 9th, 2010 at 04:27 PM.

  6. #46
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    @tbihis

    I am very curious now. What would be your plan of attack on improving the Raptors? You have mentioned getting Crawford would be one of the steps...how would you personally go about doing that? What are your other steps? I am all for improving the Raptors and would like to know how you see that best happening?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Dark Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Very true. There is a season of NCAA to play yet.
    There it is! If you guys remember, Ed Davis was projected to be a Top 5 or even Top 3 pick in this years draft before he got injured. There is still a long season ahead. For all we know, Harrison Barnes' play might dip and he could end up being drafted in the top 10.
    "Don't expect anything unless you give everything."

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Shantz wrote: View Post
    @tbihis

    You make a compelling argument. Trades and FA are certainly a huge component of the game. And no player should be asked to intentionally lose in order to boost up the teams draft value. I agree with you 100% in that department. But to completely ignore the importance that the draft can play in a teams building process is equally negligent.

    You are right; you never know what you are going to get through the draft. But the same can be said through free agency and through trades. I do not like Hedo due to his work ethic...but Phoenix took him through a trade due to the exact same reasons you are giving. Phoenix thought that in Hedo they "knew what they were getting. NBA experience, can play the grind of 82 games, talent level is on paper." Sure, that was a bigger misrepresentation of talent then normal, but that is what they thought. As Raptor fans, we knew what the Suns were getting because we watched him for a year. But every summer there is a team that talks themselves into a trade/signing because they think a veteran can fit in their system well. Sometimes it works out, other times it does not.

    Brandon Bass was supposed to be a game changer in Orlando when they signed him. He was supposed to be a banging PF who would complement Howard and make the Magic even stronger. But he can't beat out Ryan Anderson and has looked (at least for the most part) like a non-factor.


    Trades and FA are not guarantees, just like the draft.

    And as for developing the young guys...we can't ignore the other players. But if we are to bring in a guy like Jamal Crawford (not a fan of that idea that was posted by someone earlier), we are doing the same thing...prioritizing a veteran over a young guy...prioritizing now over tomorrow.

    If a great deal were to come around during the season and give us someone elite, I would love that. But if we are just getting mediocre...I think we can hope for better then that in the long term.

    Even the biggest Boston fans would have to debate whether they would trade their Championships for a chance to have Durant. If we could somehow pull off trades to land 3 great players to carry us...I would jump at that opportunity. But realistically that is just a far off of a chance as securing strong talent in the draft. What are some realistic trades/free agency singing that you would make tbihis that would make this team stronger both for this year and the future?
    im actually not "ignoring the importance" of the draft. like i said, some teams have gotten lucky with it, and im hoping and praying that if the raps do find themselves in a position to draft somebody, that that draft pick turns out to be a beast. what our issue is purposely setting the team to get a high pick in the draft to get harrison barnes, that i disagree with.

    cant argue with that! hahahaha iwas hoping youd never bust out the hedo card. hehehe. no matter how everybody hated hedo, if you compare his season coming off of that magic champioship run against trying to get a high pick in the draft, who wouldnt in their right mind grab hedo? he was 17/5/5 when he hit FA. would you pass on this guy to get a draft pick? i dont think so. we just think hedo is crap now because how it went down in toronto. but what im saying is you acquire the best talent you can right now, give yourself a chance to win now, and not wait for the draft. but yes, i do agree, trade and FA can be a gamble too. but it defintely poses more positives than a draft pick.

    i said my piece on crawford. and yes, you should prioritize now over tomorrow. coz you are not sure what will happen in the future. you make an effort to win now. build a team now.

    i think if they got durant, rivers would have been fired the next season, that was the rumbling up until they got allen and garnett. if they got durant, they wouldnt have gotten garnett and allen, and pierce wouldve requested for a trade to a contender, considering a losing season that durant had with seattle. so i dont know if boston fans are really killing themselves for passing on durant.

    ill think of something, hehehe.

  9. #49
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    oh i dont know, but acquiring a 18pt per game backup who is a capable starter much proven when JJ was injured (25pts, 4reb, 4 ast), a guy who can hit big shots/game winners, who can create his own shot, drive, shoot from the perimeter at almost 50%, who can also shoot the 3, run the break at 30 years old, yes, its a start.

    ive raised my points on kleiza and andersen. sure, include evans.

    fan-base is who keeps the team going. buys tickets, merchandise. i dont think i said let them decide. i said make an effort to win so they wont be pissed. and effort is getting the best players you can get right now, not trying to get lucky when the season is over.

    well, if playing it safe is a mediocrity, then i guess the celts acquiring allen and garnett and winning a championship, lakers getting gasol, ariza and now artest and winning a championship, atlanta getting joe johnson as an FA and making the playoffs, i guess you might consider those achievements as mediocre, since these teams decided to go on a "safe" route and acquire proven nba players. oh and now the heat getting lbj and bosh, proven nba talents as well, could potentially win championships as well. if those you consider as mediocrity, wow, youre a hard man to please!

    i mean if youre thinking that acquiring ONLY crawford is the solution just because i suggested him then i think we've all been smoking something here. if you want me to detail everything for you then, here goes, crawford can be one of the players they acquire but they have to acquire others. the point is, they need to acquire good players now, not wait for the draft.
    Crawford has talent, definitely, but I just don't understand what he would do for this team overall. He's a decent player, but he's a bench player on a contender, so you'd have to do A LOT more than just get him. Do the Raptors have enough pieces to be able to trade for good enough player to make the team a contender? I highly doubt it. At best, you're going to get a couple of borderline all-stars who are probably overpaid. That's really no way to build a contender.

    I question what your ultimate goal would be by acquiring Crawford.

    The Celtics certainly didn't play it safe, and their first attempt was to get Greg Oden or Kevin Durant. When that fell through, they traded their draft pick for an aging veteran and basically gambled everything that they would be able to pry Kevin Garnett away from the T-Wolves. Had Kevin McHale not been a horrible GM, Boston would never have become the contender they have become.
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  10. #50
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    My main point is that there needs to be a balance between planning for today and planning for tomorrow. I am not interested in tanking, but I am interested in long term success; no matter how they go about it. If you are merely thinking about today that is how you end up like the Knicks from 2003-2009: bloated contracts, poor character players, poor work ethic, etc.

    If all we are considering is the sheer talent level that we are bringing in then we are missing a big part of the picture. Trying to win now at the expense of the future is not a great move. But if the two can be in balance then a team can find success.

  11. #51
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    Quote Shantz wrote: View Post
    My main point is that there needs to be a balance between planning for today and planning for tomorrow. I am not interested in tanking, but I am interested in long term success; no matter how they go about it. If you are merely thinking about today that is how you end up like the Knicks from 2003-2009: bloated contracts, poor character players, poor work ethic, etc.

    If all we are considering is the sheer talent level that we are bringing in then we are missing a big part of the picture. Trying to win now at the expense of the future is not a great move. But if the two can be in balance then a team can find success.
    I agree , but you have to be in a position where you can do that. You can't be a poor team and worry about both winning and building for the future. You can only focus on one thing. Teams that are already pretty good can focus on both.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I agree , but you have to be in a position where you can do that. You can't be a poor team and worry about both winning and building for the future. You can only focus on one thing. Teams that are already pretty good can focus on both.
    Basically, in a nutshell, Bargs is the best. We have him. We don't need any draft picks. Those are for crybabies like the Clippers and the Wiz.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote Buddahfan wrote: View Post
    You can't compare apples and oranges and talent vs potential greatness.

    Wall, Jennings and T. Evans all control the ball when they are on the court so they are masters of their own scoring destiny. Yes they are all better than DeRozan but how many other teams passed on Jennings? Evans and Wall were drafted higher than DeRozan for good reason.

    Secondly, DeRozan will become a good NBA player, Griffin is already an all-star level player. If he stays healthy he will be one of the best, if not the best of his generation. No one has ever sanely claimed that DeRozan is as good or as near as good as Griffin. Only a Kool-aid drinker would do that.
    I don't where you got DeRozan's name from, I was referring to the name in the thread title.

    It's pretty obvious the team is looking to get younger and to rebuild, tbihis was pretty much stating don't worry about the draft and use the TPE for a top talent. I don't exactly agree. Sure I want to get a nice player with the TPE, but I'd also love the chance at a top 3 pick this season.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Basically, in a nutshell, Bargs is the best. We have him. We don't need any draft picks. Those are for crybabies like the Clippers and the Wiz.
    You know what, you're right, Bargnani should attract top tier talent every off-season. We'll be champs in no time! Who needs draft picks to build when you have a 7 footer that can hit 3's at an average rate and couldn't rebound a ball if he threw it off the backboard to himself!
    Last edited by Mack North; Tue Nov 9th, 2010 at 10:53 PM.
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    Right now the best player in 2011 is Harrison Barnes....Irving is nice but Barnes is a legit all star franchise player in the waiting,you cant pass on that....Perry Jones right now is 2nd on that list...but barring something crazy this season Harrison is going to be the No 1 pick next year....

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