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  • #31
    sorry but im not a procrastinator, and relying on the draft is procrastinating. for those who dont know what it means, it means putting off something you can do today, at a later day. maybe because of laziness, or just because you dont want to do it.

    elite teams dont let the season go to waste and rely on the draft, some might have gotten lucky, but they dont "aim" at scoring big in the draft. thats a recipe for disaster. tell me when the lakers, celtics, spurs, mavs last got a top ten pick in the past couple of years? and then there's the nets and new york letting a season go down the toilet clearing cap space and hoping to score big on the draft. nuff said.

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    • #32
      It's about being creative. There's gonna be a lockout on the horizon and it may go in the direction of a hard cap like the NHL (personally, I think it should do this route). Teams like the Celtics, Magic and Lakers are gonna be screwed because they're gonna be so far above that cap number.

      You don't want to suck for so many years, but 2 more drafts (at lottery picks) should lay the foundation for a contending team (Davis and DeRozan are already decent pieces). Add some 2nd rounders and FAs in there and you should be successful.

      Colangelo has a pretty decent eye for talent in the draft, so I'd put my faith in him in respect to that.

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      • #33
        tbihis wrote: View Post
        sorry but im not a procrastinator, and relying on the draft is procrastinating. for those who dont know what it means, it means putting off something you can do today, at a later day. maybe because of laziness, or just because you dont want to do it.

        elite teams dont let the season go to waste and rely on the draft, some might have gotten lucky, but they dont "aim" at scoring big in the draft. thats a recipe for disaster. tell me when the lakers, celtics, spurs, mavs last got a top ten pick in the past couple of years? and then there's the nets and new york letting a season go down the toilet clearing cap space and hoping to score big on the draft. nuff said.
        The Celtics tanked in 2007 in order to try to get Kevin Durant/Greg Oden. The lottery balls did not fall their way and they were gifted both KG and Ray Allen. New York was not tanking for a draft pick...they were tanking to clear money from years of overspending on free agents. It was actually free agency that New York was trying to get involved in. They were getting rid of salary in order to try to make a run at Lebron and Wade.

        What fans looking towards the draft are hoping for is a situation like the Thunder. I am hoping that if the season is going to be filled with loses, might as well benefit from it. This is in no way advocating for the Raptors to tank...but if they end up losing lots that is not necessarily a bad thing in the long term.

        How are we as fans too impatient to watch a team develop for several years? Why do we need results now? Comparing the Raptors to teams like the Lakers and Celtics is unrealistic...they are in great positions and all they need to do is tinker. We are in a rebuilding place...and that is not as bad as it seems.
        http://twitter.com/m_shantz

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        • #34
          Tim W. wrote: View Post
          I'm not fixated on rebounds, but the fact is that Bargnani is a liability on the boards and on the defensive end and Reggie makes up for that. Is it the perfect solution? Hell no, but it's one of a few possibilities. There's no right or wrong solution. Having Amir start means that the bench would have problems scoring. Triano obviously believes that pairing Reggie and Bargnani make up for each other's weaknesses, while no compromising the bench.

          I think when Ed Davis eventually moves into the starting lineup, it will improve.

          As for the team's record with that starting lineup, are you really going to make judgements based on such a small sample size? Also, DeRozan only started one of those games. Weems started the other two, and Calderon started one. In fact of the three wins where Johnson started, not one lineup happened more than once.

          Also, since when do the starters decide whether or not a team wins? How many times last season did the Raptors get behind by double digits in the first quarter only to be saved by the bench? And the starters had Bosh AND Bargnani in the starting lineup.
          You are fixated on the rebounds your answer above proves it.

          You could be correct about Davis, but trying to hold the fort at the starting PF spot by a guy who can't do anything well except rebound and grab crotches is a bit too much. Yes Reggie's defense is pretty good but overall his defense is a step down from Johnson's and maybe even Kleiza at the #4.

          All of those guys that you mentioned are still with the team. The one constant other than Johnson starting was that Reggie did not.

          Two things we know for sure about Davis are

          1. He has only played about 75 minutes of organized basketball since last February and that was in the LVSL.

          2. Davis got pushed around by the bigger PF's in the LVSL.

          I am not saying that Davis is a better choice or not a better choice than Johnson to supplant Evans as the starting PF. What I am saying is that we have seen some positive results when Johnson has started including the Raptors close loss to the Hawks in Atlanta whereas in the game before in Atlanta with Bosh starting the Raptors got blown out. Yes, Johnson still gets outplayed something fierce by guys like Noah/Gibson. I am not denying that.

          We don't really know squat how well Davis' game will translate into the NBA regular season play, especially in 10-11 after missing all of the pre-season.

          Still, all in all the Raptors management may see Johnson as a career bench rotation guy. Nothing wrong with that.

          But seeing Reggie as a starter at this point in his career with the other options that the Raptors have available is insanity in my opinion.
          Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Nov 9, 2010, 04:25 PM.
          Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

          Memories some so sweet, indeed

          Larger Photo of the avatar



          “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
          Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

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          • #35
            @shantz

            like i said, developing players is ok, and its a fixture in the nba, but you dont develop players at the expense of losing.

            youre talking about andrea, derozan, davis and amir. thats 4 guys. there are 11 other guys on the team. what are you going to do with the other 11? help the other 4 develop? if youre an nba player, trying to earn your living playing a contract, and the coach or GM tells you, lets develop tbihis, how the heck are you going to feel? after 2 years these 4 guys are all developed and youve been supporting them all those years, whats gonna happen to your career? these guys are paid to play to win. not to help develop other players. well unless your darrick martin.

            if losing is not moving backwards, its not moving forward either.

            for you as a fan, yeah losing is ok. but for the team, that sucks. who would watch a crappy team? who would want to play for a crappy team? ticket prices will go down, superstars stay away. looked what happened to seattle? do you think they thought about hey, lets keep up this losing streak and maybe in two years durant will be a beast and then we'll make profits. not gonna work, unless you have a crystal ball. and look whats gonna happen to the nets. not winning? moving to brooklyn.

            i think adding pieces from free agency and trades has a higher upside than waiting on the draft, dont you think? trades and FA, you know what youre getting. nba experience, can play the grind of 82 games, talent level is on paper. draft? 31 games a year, no nba experience.

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            • #36
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              I'm not fixated on rebounds, but the fact is that Bargnani is a liability on the boards and on the defensive end and Reggie makes up for that. Is it the perfect solution? Hell no, but it's one of a few possibilities. There's no right or wrong solution. Having Amir start means that the bench would have problems scoring. Triano obviously believes that pairing Reggie and Bargnani make up for each other's weaknesses, while no compromising the bench.

              I think when Ed Davis eventually moves into the starting lineup, it will improve.

              As for the team's record with that starting lineup, are you really going to make judgements based on such a small sample size? Also, DeRozan only started one of those games. Weems started the other two, and Calderon started one. In fact of the three wins where Johnson started, not one lineup happened more than once.

              Also, since when do the starters decide whether or not a team wins? How many times last season did the Raptors get behind by double digits in the first quarter only to be saved by the bench? And the starters had Bosh AND Bargnani in the starting lineup.
              Calderon actually started in the last 4 games of last season. I didn't bother to check DeRozan and Weems.
              Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Nov 9, 2010, 05:12 PM.
              Avatar: Riverboat Coffee House 134 Yorkville Ave. billboard of upcoming entertainers - Circa 1960s

              Memories some so sweet, indeed

              Larger Photo of the avatar



              “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
              Quote from well known personality who led their high school team to a state championship.

              Comment


              • #37
                Shantz wrote: View Post
                The Celtics tanked in 2007 in order to try to get Kevin Durant/Greg Oden. The lottery balls did not fall their way and they were gifted both KG and Ray Allen. New York was not tanking for a draft pick...they were tanking to clear money from years of overspending on free agents. It was actually free agency that New York was trying to get involved in. They were getting rid of salary in order to try to make a run at Lebron and Wade.

                What fans looking towards the draft are hoping for is a situation like the Thunder. I am hoping that if the season is going to be filled with loses, might as well benefit from it. This is in no way advocating for the Raptors to tank...but if they end up losing lots that is not necessarily a bad thing in the long term.

                How are we as fans too impatient to watch a team develop for several years? Why do we need results now? Comparing the Raptors to teams like the Lakers and Celtics is unrealistic...they are in great positions and all they need to do is tinker. We are in a rebuilding place...and that is not as bad as it seems.
                i think you just proved my point there. tanking/losing season will not get you a big score in the draft. trades and FA will. celtics, IYO tanked to get a good spot in the draft, well, that didnt work for them. but they managed to get Allen and Garnett. So you think if they scored big with oden or durant do you think theyll have a championship the following year??

                The Thunder phenomenon is what it is, a phenomenon. You think if Portland took Durant, and oden went to seattle, you think theyd have the same season as theyre having now? It was pretty clear that time that if Seattle had the 1st pick, they were going to take oden. Its all luck my friend. Just so happened Durant fell on their lap as well as westbrook.

                well you may not be impatient, but i dont think the other 10,000+ thousand who buy tickets share the same sentiments. i dont have the stats but im pretty sure when the raps were bottom feeders, tickets were as accessible as starbucks in the states. you can get them everywhere, but nobody really wants them. how do you think the lakers and celts built their current teams? by relying on the draft? garnett's deal was lopsided, and so was gasol's if BC was that good, why cant he work on a deal like that? like you said, the celtics "tanked" before they scored allen and garnett, kobe and the lakers didnt even make the playoffs a year before they landed gasol. how is not that the same situation with the raps? BC is the key man here. if he was able to trade a araujo, getting a superstar here should be a walk in the park.

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                • #38
                  i can live with them trying win, but sucking too much to do so, and getting a high draft pick. fine

                  purposely tanking is for losers. if you condone it, you're a douche.

                  i have no desire to watch millionaires who get paid to play a game for a living TRY to lose games. If the raps ever did that, i wouldnt support them ever again.

                  i can deal with losing... i cant deal with losers.

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                  • #39
                    @tbihis

                    You make a compelling argument. Trades and FA are certainly a huge component of the game. And no player should be asked to intentionally lose in order to boost up the teams draft value. I agree with you 100% in that department. But to completely ignore the importance that the draft can play in a teams building process is equally negligent.

                    You are right; you never know what you are going to get through the draft. But the same can be said through free agency and through trades. I do not like Hedo due to his work ethic...but Phoenix took him through a trade due to the exact same reasons you are giving. Phoenix thought that in Hedo they "knew what they were getting. NBA experience, can play the grind of 82 games, talent level is on paper." Sure, that was a bigger misrepresentation of talent then normal, but that is what they thought. As Raptor fans, we knew what the Suns were getting because we watched him for a year. But every summer there is a team that talks themselves into a trade/signing because they think a veteran can fit in their system well. Sometimes it works out, other times it does not.

                    Brandon Bass was supposed to be a game changer in Orlando when they signed him. He was supposed to be a banging PF who would complement Howard and make the Magic even stronger. But he can't beat out Ryan Anderson and has looked (at least for the most part) like a non-factor.


                    Trades and FA are not guarantees, just like the draft.

                    And as for developing the young guys...we can't ignore the other players. But if we are to bring in a guy like Jamal Crawford (not a fan of that idea that was posted by someone earlier), we are doing the same thing...prioritizing a veteran over a young guy...prioritizing now over tomorrow.

                    If a great deal were to come around during the season and give us someone elite, I would love that. But if we are just getting mediocre...I think we can hope for better then that in the long term.

                    Even the biggest Boston fans would have to debate whether they would trade their Championships for a chance to have Durant. If we could somehow pull off trades to land 3 great players to carry us...I would jump at that opportunity. But realistically that is just a far off of a chance as securing strong talent in the draft. What are some realistic trades/free agency singing that you would make tbihis that would make this team stronger both for this year and the future?
                    http://twitter.com/m_shantz

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                    • #40
                      heinz57 wrote: View Post
                      i can live with them trying win, but sucking too much to do so, and getting a high draft pick. fine

                      purposely tanking is for losers.
                      I agree fully with you Heinz57
                      http://twitter.com/m_shantz

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                      • #41
                        tbihis wrote: View Post
                        Not a solution, but its a start. Crawford averaged 18pts last year playing behind Joe Johnson. imagine what he can do if he's a starter and playing 35mins a game.

                        Nope, not because theyre european. see my earlier post.

                        i dont think the fan-base share your sentiments. being patient and building the right way might take 1-10 years. i was listening to paul jones and eric smith last night after the game and one guy called in and said the raps should just keep losing to get a high pick next draft. these 2 basketball experts said that draft is a "luck of the draw". cant be even 60% sure with the draft. getting an experienced baller is a little bit safer way to go dont you think?
                        How is trading for a 30 year old combo guard in the last year of his contract, who's been to the playoffs once and is not a good defender a start?

                        You said this "get workhorses who know how to bang, take contact and finish at the rim." While Kleiza certainly isn't a stellar defender, he is a workhorse who knows how to bang and take contact. If it's his finishing at the rim you have a problem with, why not include Reggie Evans? The guy is currently shooting 24%, and pretty much all from under the basket. And Andersen? He's shown to be good at banging down low. A lot better than I expected.

                        As for the fan base, I couldn't care less what they wanted. If the fan base had any say in how things went then the team would change the starting lineup every other game, make trades once a week and have a new coach once a month. They're like a bunch of bi-polar adolescents with attention deficit disorder. Making decisions based on their whims is probably not the best way to go.

                        Building through the draft is a gamble, but you never, ever win Championships by playing it safe. Ever. That's the route to mediocrity, which I want absolutely no part of. Currently, there are 3 players which look like possible franchise players projected to be in the draft next season: Barnes, Jones and Irving. That's pretty good odds, to me. Any one of them will probably immediately become the best player on the team.

                        And I'm certainly not against trading some players, but definitely not for veterans who might give the Raptors a couple of more wins. The Raptors have a number of pieces that they can use to better themselves. There shouldn't be any hurry. That's the smart thing to do.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                        • #42
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          I'm not fixated on rebounds, but the fact is that Bargnani is a liability on the boards and on the defensive end and Reggie makes up for that. Is it the perfect solution? Hell no, but it's one of a few possibilities. There's no right or wrong solution. Having Amir start means that the bench would have problems scoring. Triano obviously believes that pairing Reggie and Bargnani make up for each other's weaknesses, while no compromising the bench.

                          I think when Ed Davis eventually moves into the starting lineup, it will improve.

                          As for the team's record with that starting lineup, are you really going to make judgements based on such a small sample size? Also, DeRozan only started one of those games. Weems started the other two, and Calderon started one. In fact of the three wins where Johnson started, not one lineup happened more than once.

                          Also, since when do the starters decide whether or not a team wins? How many times last season did the Raptors get behind by double digits in the first quarter only to be saved by the bench? And the starters had Bosh AND Bargnani in the starting lineup.
                          i actually think amir starting would be better. evans does complement bargs with his rebounding, but some of those rebounds should have been putbacks, 2 pts. even if you rebound 40 times but cant turn it into pts, then there's really no use. amir is good with putbacks and can score inside while bargs works outside, like he always does.

                          no nba experience, coming off of knee surgery, no preseason and youre subjecting the kid to the pressure of posting a win after a 1 win start. ouch. when do you exactly expect davis to start?

                          last time a checked, starters are mostly the catalyst in wins. you tell me. maybe thats why they put the best players in the starting 5. maybe thats why every player's dream is to be a starter. maybe because being a starter gives you an opportunity to stir your team in a winning direction. but thats just me. when you start, you get momentum. realistically, you starters should be getting at least 35 minutes a game. this splitting minutes thing is not really a good idea....players need a lot of minutes to rev. you cant expect a guy to play 25 minutes and be a beast.

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                          • #43
                            Buddahfan wrote: View Post
                            You are fixated on the rebounds your answer above proves it.

                            You could be correct about Davis, but trying to hold the fort at the starting PF spot by a guy who can't do anything well except rebound and grab crotches is a bit too much. Yes Reggie's defense is pretty good but overall his defense is a step down from Johnson's and maybe even Kleiza at the #4.

                            All of those guys that you mentioned are still with the team. The one constant other than Johnson starting was that Reggie did not.

                            Two things we know for sure about Davis are

                            1. He has only played about 75 minutes of organized basketball since last February and that was in the LVSL.

                            2. Davis got pushed around by the bigger PF's in the LVSL.

                            I am not saying that Davis is a better choice or not a better choice than Johnson to supplant Evans as the starting PF. What I am saying is that we have seen some positive results when Johnson has started including the Raptors close loss to the Hawks in Atlanta whereas in the game before in Atlanta with Bosh starting the Raptors got blown out. Yes, Johnson still gets outplayed something fierce by guys like Noah/Gibson. I am not denying that.

                            We don't really know squat how well Davis' game will translate into the NBA regular season play, especially in 10-11 after missing all of the pre-season.

                            Still, all in all the Raptors management may see Johnson as a career bench rotation guy. Nothing wrong with that.

                            But seeing Reggie as a starter at this point in his career with the other options that the Raptors have available is insanity in my opinion.
                            I'm fixated on the things that win games. Scoring, defense and rebounding are the three most important things. My answer proves that I think that you need all three to win. Nothing more. And since my worry with bringing Evans off the bench would hurt the bench scoring, I fail to see how I'm fixated on rebounding.

                            If it was up me I'd probably play Bargnani 20 mpg and maybe bring him off the bench, since he's such a liability, and I'd also probably limit Reggie's minutes, too, but the Raptors don't have the luxury of having a lot of well rounded big men. Triano is doing what he can with the pieces he's been given.

                            As for Davis, obviously no one knows how his game will translate to the NBA, but that's the deal with every rookie. I like his game enough that I was thrilled when he was drafted and I think he'll eventually be a very good PF. He's got a high basketball IQ, which seems to be rare for this team. I don't think he'll make an immediate impact, but I'm not really worried about that, at the moment.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • #44
                              tbihis wrote: View Post
                              i actually think amir starting would be better. evans does complement bargs with his rebounding, but some of those rebounds should have been putbacks, 2 pts. even if you rebound 40 times but cant turn it into pts, then there's really no use. amir is good with putbacks and can score inside while bargs works outside, like he always does.

                              no nba experience, coming off of knee surgery, no preseason and youre subjecting the kid to the pressure of posting a win after a 1 win start. ouch. when do you exactly expect davis to start?

                              last time a checked, starters are mostly the catalyst in wins. you tell me. maybe thats why they put the best players in the starting 5. maybe thats why every player's dream is to be a starter. maybe because being a starter gives you an opportunity to stir your team in a winning direction. but thats just me. when you start, you get momentum. realistically, you starters should be getting at least 35 minutes a game. this splitting minutes thing is not really a good idea....players need a lot of minutes to rev. you cant expect a guy to play 25 minutes and be a beast.
                              I'm all for giving Amir more minutes, but I understand the point of bringing him off the bench. People seem to be under the impression that simply starting a guy will change everything. Currently the Raptors have 10 rotation players. Andersen plays the least, with 13 mpg and Bargnani plays the most with 32 mpg. Throwing the best, most well rounded players into the starting lineup will help the starting lineup, but hurt the bench. It's a no win situation. The problem is not who starts, but the fact that the Raptors simply don't have the talent to be able to solve all the problems fans want to. This is a 20-30 win team that has several holes. They're a young team, which is good in the sense that they will hopefully develop and get better, but bad in the sense that young teams struggle more and will find it harder to win.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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                              • #45
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                How is trading for a 30 year old combo guard in the last year of his contract, who's been to the playoffs once and is not a good defender a start?

                                You said this "get workhorses who know how to bang, take contact and finish at the rim." While Kleiza certainly isn't a stellar defender, he is a workhorse who knows how to bang and take contact. If it's his finishing at the rim you have a problem with, why not include Reggie Evans? The guy is currently shooting 24%, and pretty much all from under the basket. And Andersen? He's shown to be good at banging down low. A lot better than I expected.

                                As for the fan base, I couldn't care less what they wanted. If the fan base had any say in how things went then the team would change the starting lineup every other game, make trades once a week and have a new coach once a month. They're like a bunch of bi-polar adolescents with attention deficit disorder. Making decisions based on their whims is probably not the best way to go.

                                Building through the draft is a gamble, but you never, ever win Championships by playing it safe. Ever. That's the route to mediocrity, which I want absolutely no part of. Currently, there are 3 players which look like possible franchise players projected to be in the draft next season: Barnes, Jones and Irving. That's pretty good odds, to me. Any one of them will probably immediately become the best player on the team.

                                And I'm certainly not against trading some players, but definitely not for veterans who might give the Raptors a couple of more wins. The Raptors have a number of pieces that they can use to better themselves. There shouldn't be any hurry. That's the smart thing to do.
                                oh i dont know, but acquiring a 18pt per game backup who is a capable starter much proven when JJ was injured (25pts, 4reb, 4 ast), a guy who can hit big shots/game winners, who can create his own shot, drive, shoot from the perimeter at almost 50%, who can also shoot the 3, run the break at 30 years old, yes, its a start.

                                ive raised my points on kleiza and andersen. sure, include evans.

                                fan-base is who keeps the team going. buys tickets, merchandise. i dont think i said let them decide. i said make an effort to win so they wont be pissed. and effort is getting the best players you can get right now, not trying to get lucky when the season is over.

                                well, if playing it safe is a mediocrity, then i guess the celts acquiring allen and garnett and winning a championship, lakers getting gasol, ariza and now artest and winning a championship, atlanta getting joe johnson as an FA and making the playoffs, i guess you might consider those achievements as mediocre, since these teams decided to go on a "safe" route and acquire proven nba players. oh and now the heat getting lbj and bosh, proven nba talents as well, could potentially win championships as well. if those you consider as mediocrity, wow, youre a hard man to please!

                                i mean if youre thinking that acquiring ONLY crawford is the solution just because i suggested him then i think we've all been smoking something here. if you want me to detail everything for you then, here goes, crawford can be one of the players they acquire but they have to acquire others. the point is, they need to acquire good players now, not wait for the draft.
                                Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Tue Nov 9, 2010, 05:27 PM.

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