BC looking like a legit architect

[Legalize-It]

Its understandable if you are for or against BC, both sides of the plate have reasonable agruments. Going into this year people have been holding a torch to BC, Triano, and Bargnani. I know the Raps are 2-8, but if you were to say that this team ins't exciting, improving by the game, and showing serious potential, then I don't think you have been watching the Raps of the past-present enough to make that assessment. I'll admit that I had serious doubts about BC's capabilities coming into the season, Triano's inability to hold guys accountable, and Barg's soft rebounding. But at the moment, I am seeing a completely different picture, and three of the guys I mentioned are garnering my respect. Credit Derozan, Weems, Amir, Jack and Dorsey for sticking around Toronto this summer to set this team some sort of bar.

why iz your level of success just for the team to be exciting ? do you think the celtics or lakers go into each season thinking hey fruk the record, lets just go out and make each game exciting ?

did you even think sometimes the other team takes it easy knowing they're playing trash ??

thats why sometimes the lakers and celtics will lose to the warriors or t'wolves... not because the shit team played better, but mainly b/c the good team took the nite off...

dont confuse a close game that we lost as a measure of how good this team is....

[Legalize-It]

The idea that any GM could have done what he did in the first year is also a joke. Parker was out of the league for years and Garbo had never been here - there is 2 of your starters right there from 'the freebie' year. I don't remember those guys starring the final four. I don't remember them ever hitting the HoopsHype.com rumour section about contenders vying for their services.

Who do you think wanted to build around Bosh? MLSE or BC? Bosh is nothing like any other player BC has traded for or drafted - minus J. O'Neal. You work with what you are given.

I provided the link to his GM career. Break it down. Your last line is weak - back it up.

we won the division !!!

did you check the rosters of the teams in our division that year ??

knicks - isiah thomas primetime years
celtics - pre big 3
76ers - AI left that year, iggy was still young
nets - vc, kidd, and RJ all missed a significant amount of games with injuries

so what are you so proud of that we won the division that year ??

[Legalize-It]

Exactly - they are going through a bonafide rebuild. Look at their roster, future contract obligations, draft picks, flexibility combined with the progress being shown by the current team.

Also, it is really unfortunate that CHA trade was killed last second by MJ. However, he probably did the franchise a favour in the long run allowing younger players to develop and ensure a higher draft pick this year. This is a total rebuild and one great draft pick and free agent or trade signing is really all this team needs to truly compete. The bench and role players are there - they just need go to players.

hahah cant you say that about any lottery team ? but yea ur rite, bc should get credit for maintaining a good bench !!

also... bc TRADED FOR tj ford... good evaluator of character there... if it werent for babcock who signed jose, TJ would be our man probably with a 5 year deal worth 50 million which we would still be paying

[Matt52]

we won the division !!!

did you check the rosters of the teams in our division that year ??

knicks - isiah thomas primetime years
celtics - pre big 3
76ers - AI left that year, iggy was still young
nets - vc, kidd, and RJ all missed a significant amount of games with injuries

so what are you so proud of that we won the division that year ??

Not so much they won the division, you are right that was a weak division. But it was tied for the best record the franchise has ever had. BC has had more wins in his 4 years here than any other 4 year span in Raptors history. Here is their season records over the history of the franchise:

http://www.nbauniverse.com/teams/rec...to_raptors.htm

The last 2 years have been wasted building around Bosh after it became clear he was no franchise player. The bottom line is *cough*Brian has a large member*cough* now that Bosh is gone and given BC's abilities, it will be interesting to see what happens with the team. I hope he gets this season and next to get it together. After that if the team is still trying to 'rebuild' adios BC.

[Tim W.]

and why not?! I mean take a look at the current roster and their record, they are not going to win +40 games, get to .500, or even the playoff so how can I not be a judge on Colangelo this season?!

This roster obviously isn't built to win now. It's meant to develop young talent, get a high draft pick and build for the future. The Raptors don't have a ton of talent, but they've put together some nice young pieces that could either develop into pretty good players, or be used in trades. If you want to say he's failed because of what has transpired over the previous 4 years, then that's fine, but this year you can't judge the team on it's record.

[Legalize-It]

Minus the first line, not a bad response and worth responding to. This is how rational people debate - and I really do not mean that with any indiginity.

This is a proper rebuild because the guy the team has been forced to build around has left to play with his buddies on the beach.

The stiffs and bench players are exactly what a successful team needs. Look at the roster -

Jack and Calderon are great back up PG's,
DeRozan is a player with a lot of potential which he hopefully uses,
Weems another great developing player and appears to be a guy who would be a great player off the bench,
Kleiza great guy off the bench,
Barbosa great guy off the bench and former 6th man of the year,
Johnson great energy off the bench especially last couple of games,
Davis could be a great 4 in the league,
Alabi a project,
Dorsey a player who knows his role and does it well,
Bargnani is a great 3rd or 4th option on O who needs a defensive minded C to play with and who has many weaknesses - he is not a franchise player but he is on a reasonable contract considering many others in the league,

Evans, Anderson, Wright, Banks, possibly Barbosa all expiring.

Throw in a couple of 1st round picks next year - hopefully at least one is a future star.

Throw in a Jeff Green on the wing or Marc Gasol in the post.

Throw in whatever the TPE returns - if anything - and this team could be a competitor.

I'm wondering what you would expect the GM to say? "yeah, we're gonna suck." The guy has to sell tickets (supposedly much less than previous years though) and what message would that send the team?

BC has already had a deal in place to move Calderon. It is quite obvious one of the PG's will be gone if at all possible and the return is worth it - Diaw/Chandler/Barbosa for Turk/Calderon/Evans would have been a great trade for the Raptors in terms of competitiveness and future flexibility.

We'll have to see what unfolds. The team is obviously in transition with a good core already in place.

In terms of future prospects, which team would you rather be a fan of going forward: DET, MEM, PHI, NJ, CLE, CHA, LAC, MIN, or TOR? I'd take TOR over all of them.

what does bosh leaving for miami have anything to do with this being a rebuild ? rebuilding teams dont sign players like kleiza to long term contracts ??

you make it sound like weems and our other young players are a blake griffn or john wall type young player...

[Matt52]

what does bosh leaving for miami have anything to do with this being a rebuild ? rebuilding teams dont sign players like kleiza to long term contracts ??

you make it sound like weems and our other young players are a blake griffn or john wall type young player...

LOL - The franchise player leaves and it is not a build?

Actually I said Weems and others were great players off the bench minus DeRozan and Davis who the jury is still out on. The Raps have nothing close to a Griffin or Wall - maybe they get one next year? BTW you are comparing two number one consensus number one draft picks to Weems et al.

[Trife76]

This roster obviously isn't built to win now. It's meant to develop young talent, get a high draft pick and build for the future. The Raptors don't have a ton of talent, but they've put together some nice young pieces that could either develop into pretty good players, or be used in trades. If you want to say he's failed because of what has transpired over the previous 4 years, then that's fine, but this year you can't judge the team on it's record.

lol Dude thats absolute non sense...of course you can judge him based on this year...His series of whiffs landed him and the team where they are...If the parts dont pan out and he doesnt move on that TPE and doesnt make necessary other moves than he most def is to be judged....lol @ the notion that he gets a pass on his own mess...

[Legalize-It]

Not so much they won the division, you are right that was a weak division. But it was tied for the best record the franchise has ever had. BC has had more wins in his 4 years here than any other 4 year span in Raptors history. Here is their season records over the history of the franchise:
http://www.nbauniverse.com/teams/rec...to_raptors.htm

The last 2 years have been wasted building around Bosh after it became clear he was no franchise player. The bottom line is *cough*Brian has a large member*cough* now that Bosh is gone and given BC's abilities, it will be interesting to see what happens with the team. I hope he gets this season and next to get it together. After that if the team is still trying to 'rebuild' adios BC.

so what i would take a playoff series win over any of what bc has done...

[Trife76]

LOL - The franchise player leaves and it is not a build?

Actually I said Weems and others were great players off the bench minus DeRozan and Davis who the jury is still out on. The Raps have nothing close to a Griffin or Wall - maybe they get one next year? BTW you are comparing two number one consensus number one draft picks to Weems et al.

Its a rebuild because Bosh left ? Where did Bosh take this team again ? What are we rebuilding from exactly ? We were in the toilet WITH him...

[Legalize-It]

not when you are siging free agents like klezia to patch up holes and hoping to win 30 games, that is not a rebuild.

[Legalize-It]

when the wizards decided to rebuild they didnt didnt keep haywood, jamison, butler... all those guys were traded for draft picks....

same with the supersonics (thunder)... they didnt keep ray ray...

name one player from the 09-10 team that was traded for a draft pick...

until bargs and jose are gone, its nothing but guaranteed mediocrity...

and you can guilt trip yourself all you want into thinking you are not a real raps fan for beieving this, but its true.

[Nick]

Pretty funny to all of you hating on Colangelo. Do you not remember Babcock?

[Legalize-It]

Pretty funny to all of you hating on Colangelo. Do you not remember Babcock?

what if babcock didnt exist ?? who would you deflect to then ??

is comparing babcock to bc really fair ??

babcock
- disgruntled star
- hired 2 weeks before the draft
- no cap space

BC
- number 1 pick
- rising star
- loads of cap space thanks to embry

yea its really fair to compare the two, but do what you gotta do to not work your brain too hard nick...

[Matt52]

when the wizards decided to rebuild they didnt didnt keep haywood, jamison, butler... all those guys were traded for draft picks....

same with the supersonics (thunder)... they didnt keep ray ray...

name one player from the 09-10 team that was traded for a draft pick...
until bargs and jose are gone, its nothing but guaranteed mediocrity...

and you can guilt trip yourself all you want into thinking you are not a real raps fan for beieving this, but its true.

Ummmm, Chris Bosh?

Wizards still have Arenas at $17M per season and is untradeable. No rebuild there. Plus they have long term contracts in guys who are regressing in McGee and Blatche and Nick Young is looking like a bench player. Those draft picks have not yielded much. Also all the guys you mentioned were not traded for draft picks as the Wizards have no picks owed or owing. Haywood and Butler: Dallas Mavericks traded Josh Howard, Drew Gooden, James Singleton and Quinton Ross to the Washington Wizards for Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood, DeShawn Stevenson and cash. Jamison: In a three-team trade, the Washington Wizards acquired Al Thornton from the Los Angeles Clippers and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, a 2010 first-round pick and the rights to Emir Preldzic from the Cleveland Cavaliers. The Cleveland Cavaliers acquired Antawn Jamison from the Washington Wizards and Sebastian Telfair from the Los Angeles Clippers. The Los Angeles Clippers acquired Drew Gooden from the Washington Wizards.



Supersonics just got the 2nd overall pick and traded Ray Ray for the 5th pick (Green) and expiring contracts. Lewis was traded for a 2nd round pick and a $9.5M TPE. I do hope the Raptors can do what the Supersonics have managed but even they have picked up a bum contract or two along the way - Nick COllison and Mo' Pete. It also took them two years of trying to build around Ray Allen/Rashard Lewis and not making the post season following a playoff appearance, fluking in to the 2nd overall pick with the 5th worst record and just so happening to get one of the greatest players in the game just 3 seasons later, then selecting 4th overall (Westbrook) and third overall (Harden) the next two seasons and making the playoffs as the 8th seed 5 seasons after the last post season appearance.

The most successful rebuild of recent memory has been SEA/OKC and that took 5 years and quite a bit of luck to go along with a great front office. It is time to get realistic.

*EDIT* WSH did get a 2010 1st round pick from CLE which was good for pick 30. That pick was then traded: Drafted by the Washington Wizards in the 1st round (30th overall) in 2010. Then traded to the Minnesota Timberwolves with the rights to Nemanja Bjelica for the rights to Trevor Booker and Hamady N'Diaye. So for 3 starters WSH got 1 30th draft pick.

[Tim W.]

lol Dude thats absolute non sense...of course you can judge him based on this year...His series of whiffs landed him and the team where they are...If the parts dont pan out and he doesnt move on that TPE and doesnt make necessary other moves than he most def is to be judged....lol @ the notion that he gets a pass on his own mess...

Apparently you didn't read my post. I said you can't judge the season on the record. I never said he gets a pass. If Colangelo wanted to win, he'd trade some of the younger players for veterans, use the TPE on an overpaid veteran and make a run at the playoffs. That would be a HUGE mistake. What Colangelo should be judged on is on how his players develop this season, and what he does next summer.

[Matt52]

Geoff Petrie is considered one of the better GM's in the leauge and is a 2 time NBA Executive of the Year. Here are his results since 1994:

http://www.nbauniverse.com/teams/rec...ento_kings.htm

2009-10 Sacramento 25 57 .305 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2008-09 Sacramento 17 65 .207 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2007-08 Sacramento 38 44 .463 4th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2006-07 Sacramento 33 49 .402 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2005-06 Sacramento 44 38 .537 4th Pacific Division 2 4 .333 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2004-05 Sacramento 50 32 .610 2nd Pacific Division 1 4 .200 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2003-04 Sacramento 55 27 .671 2nd Pacific Division 7 5 .583 Lost West Conf Semis
2002-03 Sacramento 59 23 .720 1st Pacific Division 7 5 .583 Lost West Conf Semis
2001-02 Sacramento 61 21 .744 1st Pacific Division 10 6 .625 Lost West Conf Finals
2000-01 Sacramento 55 27 .671 2nd Pacific Division 3 5 .375 Lost West Conf Semis
1999-00 Sacramento 44 38 .537 5th Pacific Division 2 3 .400 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1998-99 * Sacramento 27 23 .540 3rd Pacific Division 2 3 .400 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1997-98 Sacramento 27 55 .329 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
1996-97 Sacramento 34 48 .415 6th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
1995-96 Sacramento 39 43 .476 5th Pacific Division 1 3 .250 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1994-95 Sacramento 39 43 .476 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
1993-94 Sacramento 28 54 .341 6th Pacific Division - - - DNQ

The GM or President of Operations of any sports team is difficult. IMO Colangelo is one of the best in the NBA. Obviously this opinion is not shared by all. Besides Kevin Pritchard, I can't think of anyone else out there better for the job at this time than Colangelo. If you know of anyone, please share.

[Legalize-It]

Ummmm, Chris Bosh?

Wizards still have Arenas at $17M per season and is untradeable. No rebuild there. Plus they have long term contracts in guys who are regressing in McGee and Blatche and Nick Young is looking like a bench player. Those draft picks have not yielded much. Also all the guys you mentioned were not traded for draft picks as the Wizards have no picks owed or owing. Haywood and Butler: Dallas Mavericks traded Josh Howard, Drew Gooden, James Singleton and Quinton Ross to the Washington Wizards for Caron Butler, Brendan Haywood, DeShawn Stevenson and cash. Jamison: In a three-team trade, the Washington Wizards acquired Al Thornton from the Los Angeles Clippers and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, a 2010 first-round pick and the rights to Emir Preldzic from the Cleveland Cavaliers. The Cleveland Cavaliers acquired Antawn Jamison from the Washington Wizards and Sebastian Telfair from the Los Angeles Clippers. The Los Angeles Clippers acquired Drew Gooden from the Washington Wizards.



Supersonics just got the 2nd overall pick and traded Ray Ray for the 5th pick (Green) and expiring contracts. Lewis was traded for a 2nd round pick and a $9.5M TPE. I do hope the Raptors can do what the Supersonics have managed but even they have picked up a bum contract or two along the way - Nick COllison and Mo' Pete. It also took them two years of trying to build around Ray Allen/Rashard Lewis and not making the post season following a playoff appearance, fluking in to the 2nd overall pick with the 5th worst record and just so happening to get one of the greatest players in the game just 3 seasons later, then selecting 4th overall (Westbrook) and third overall (Harden) the next two seasons and making the playoffs as the 8th seed 5 seasons after the last post season appearance.

The most successful rebuild of recent memory has been SEA/OKC and that took 5 years and quite a bit of luck to go along with a great front office. It is time to get realistic.

*EDIT* WSH did get a 2010 1st round pick from CLE which was good for pick 30. That pick was then traded: Drafted by the Washington Wizards in the 1st round (30th overall) in 2010. Then traded to the Minnesota Timberwolves with the rights to Nemanja Bjelica for the rights to Trevor Booker and Hamady N'Diaye. So for 3 starters WSH got 1 30th draft pick.

ok so back to the question ? are the raps in rebuilding just b/c bosh left as you assume ?

or does it require trading some of your veterans for future draft picks and other young players ?

blatch and mcgee are regressing ?? yea ok ! i guess no one is developing at sonny weem's rate right ??

[Legalize-It]

Geoff Petrie is considered one of the better GM's in the leauge and is a 2 time NBA Executive of the Year. Here are his results since 1994:

http://www.nbauniverse.com/teams/rec...ento_kings.htm

2009-10 Sacramento 25 57 .305 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2008-09 Sacramento 17 65 .207 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2007-08 Sacramento 38 44 .463 4th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2006-07 Sacramento 33 49 .402 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
2005-06 Sacramento 44 38 .537 4th Pacific Division 2 4 .333 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2004-05 Sacramento 50 32 .610 2nd Pacific Division 1 4 .200 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
2003-04 Sacramento 55 27 .671 2nd Pacific Division 7 5 .583 Lost West Conf Semis
2002-03 Sacramento 59 23 .720 1st Pacific Division 7 5 .583 Lost West Conf Semis
2001-02 Sacramento 61 21 .744 1st Pacific Division 10 6 .625 Lost West Conf Finals
2000-01 Sacramento 55 27 .671 2nd Pacific Division 3 5 .375 Lost West Conf Semis
1999-00 Sacramento 44 38 .537 5th Pacific Division 2 3 .400 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1998-99 * Sacramento 27 23 .540 3rd Pacific Division 2 3 .400 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1997-98 Sacramento 27 55 .329 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
1996-97 Sacramento 34 48 .415 6th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
1995-96 Sacramento 39 43 .476 5th Pacific Division 1 3 .250 Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1994-95 Sacramento 39 43 .476 5th Pacific Division - - - DNQ
1993-94 Sacramento 28 54 .341 6th Pacific Division - - - DNQ

The GM or President of Operations of any sports team is difficult. IMO Colangelo is one of the best in the NBA. Obviously this opinion is not shared by all. Besides Kevin Pritchard, I can't think of anyone else out there better for the job at this time than Colangelo. If you know of anyone, please share.

best in the nba ? wow you would think someone would have to win a playoff series once in a while to get that title ??

[Nick]

why iz your level of success just for the team to be exciting ? do you think the celtics or lakers go into each season thinking hey fruk the record, lets just go out and make each game exciting ?

did you even think sometimes the other team takes it easy knowing they're playing trash ??

thats why sometimes the lakers and celtics will lose to the warriors or t'wolves... not because the shit team played better, but mainly b/c the good team took the nite off...

dont confuse a close game that we lost as a measure of how good this team is....

Ok, you seem to know what your talking about!