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Thread: What does "retooling" mean ?

  1. #41
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The Celtics rebuilt by flipping young talent for star veterans Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Everyone called it a rebuild and they had no real focus on developing anybody outside of Rondo and Perkins. I get what you're saying but I don't agree it's as black and white as that. Most rebuilds involve tearing it down, bringing in young prospects and developing them together but not all rebuilds work that way. The Celtics are a prime example.
    but the celtics and the 2010 heat are the exception to the rule... it wouldnt make sense for the raptors to even fool themselves into thinking they can go out and sign 3 big name free agents...

  2. #42
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The only player Colangelo has traded away that he drafted was Nathan Jawai. The only draft pick (of any note) that Colangelo has been responsible for trading away (and didn't get back) in the four years he has been in charge of the Raptors was the 2008 first round pick. The Raptors currently have TWO first round draft picks for next June.

    When Bosh was a Raptor, the focus was on trying to win now, which meant signing and trading for veterans. Now that he's gone, the focus is on retooling/rebuilding. That can be seen with the fact that Colangelo insisted on draft picks in return for the sign and trade of Bosh. It can also be seen in the fact that Colangelo didn't use the TPE during the summer, when there are more players available. It can also be seen in the fact that Ed Davis was drafted instead of a player who might make more of an immediate impact, or instead of simply trading the pick away for a veteran player. It can be seen in the fact that 9 of the Raptors on the team are under the age of 27.

    And I have no idea whether Colangelo is going to use the TPE and neither do you. If he does, I hope he does it in order to acquire a draft pick or a young player. In order to acquire a draft pick, he might have to do what Oklahoma City did and take on a veteran with a big contract, like they did with Morris Peterson. Or like Washington did with Kirk Hinrich.
    more players will be available as the season goes on, as teams who thought they had a shot at making the playoffs, learn that they dont and go into clearing big contracts mode... you know this too tim...

    also you say how bc drafted davis, a guy that wont have an immediate impact.... well what do you expect from a 13th pick ?
    Last edited by Legalize-It; Fri Nov 19th, 2010 at 12:30 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    the only reason we got a draft pick back for bosh, IS BECAUSE MIAMI HAD NO ONE ELSE LEFT ON THEIR ROSTER !

    who traded roy hibbert ?

    how did we get david anderson ? he also traded a draft pick for D A... i can go on but its useless talking to you tim...
    Well, Colangelo got their draft pick back, as well as Miami's, because they wanted to rebuild with Bosh leaving.

    Colangelo drafted Hibbert for Indiana because the O'Neal trade couldn't go through until July.

    And David Andersen was traded for a CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick whose conditions will most likely never have been met.

    I really care very little about the trading of 2nd round picks because they are so easily acquired. The Raptors didn't have one in the last draft but were easily able to get the player the wanted in the second round.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Well, Colangelo got their draft pick back, as well as Miami's, because they wanted to rebuild with Bosh leaving.

    Colangelo drafted Hibbert for Indiana because the O'Neal trade couldn't go through until July.

    And David Andersen was traded for a CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick whose conditions will most likely never have been met.

    I really care very little about the trading of 2nd round picks because they are so easily acquired. The Raptors didn't have one in the last draft but were easily able to get the player the wanted in the second round.
    yea so you asked when has bc traded away draft picks... and you already knew the answer.

    and you also knew that miami had NO ONE on the roster outside of wade and chalmers, so BC had no choice to take back a draft pick...

  5. #45
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Well, Colangelo got their draft pick back, as well as Miami's, because they wanted to rebuild with Bosh leaving.

    Colangelo drafted Hibbert for Indiana because the O'Neal trade couldn't go through until July.
    And David Andersen was traded for a CONDITIONAL 2nd round pick whose conditions will most likely never have been met.

    I really care very little about the trading of 2nd round picks because they are so easily acquired. The Raptors didn't have one in the last draft but were easily able to get the player the wanted in the second round.
    an anterestinng choice of words...

    another way to say it is:

    the raptors TRADED a 1st round pick in the j.o. trade...

  6. #46
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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    more players will be available as the season goes on, as teams who thought they had a shot at making the playoffs, learn that they dont and go into clearing big contracts mode... you know this too tim...

    also you say how bc drafted davis, a guy that wont have an immediate impact.... well what do you expect from a 13th pick ?
    The desperation by some teams will be higher than in the summer, but there will be fewer teams that are willing to trade closer to the deadline. In the summer, almost every team is willing to make at least a few roster changes, but once the season starts, the teams that are doing well, or better than expected, tend to want to stand pat so they don't upset their chemistry. It's usually only teams that aren't doing as well as they expected that want to deal at the trade deadline.

    And why do you think Colangelo will use the TPE on some high priced veteran that will take the team away from rebuilding? He's never been in a situation quite like this one, so predicting what he will do is impossible.
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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    an anterestinng choice of words...

    another way to say it is:

    the raptors TRADED a 1st round pick in the j.o. trade...
    Yes. Hence why I said this in a post above...
    The only draft pick (of any note) that Colangelo has been responsible for trading away (and didn't get back) in the four years he has been in charge of the Raptors was the 2008 first round pick.
    What exactly are you arguing here?
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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    yea so you asked when has bc traded away draft picks... and you already knew the answer.

    and you also knew that miami had NO ONE on the roster outside of wade and chalmers, so BC had no choice to take back a draft pick...
    Actually, as I stated in the previous post, I already said he traded the 2008 first round pick away. I do find it frustrating that I continually have to repeat myself.

    And according to you in the Beasley thread, Colangelo could have taken Beasley, which may or may not be true. And everything I've read said that Colangelo was insistent on getting draft picks back wherever Bosh went, probably because Colangelo knew he would have to rebuild.

    I don't really understand what you're trying to argue here. No one is denying the strategy before Bosh left was to try and win immediately, which meant trading away a couple of draft picks for veteran help. But that is an entirely different situation than the Raptors are presently in. Colangelo now seems to want to collect first round picks because he's now in rebuilding mode, which can be seen in an earlier post I made.

    As far as I can tell, you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, because you don't have any clear argument that you are trying to put forth other than "you're wrong".
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    The desperation by some teams will be higher than in the summer, but there will be fewer teams that are willing to trade closer to the deadline. In the summer, almost every team is willing to make at least a few roster changes, but once the season starts, the teams that are doing well, or better than expected, tend to want to stand pat so they don't upset their chemistry. It's usually only teams that aren't doing as well as they expected that want to deal at the trade deadline.

    And why do you think Colangelo will use the TPE on some high priced veteran that will take the team away from rebuilding? He's never been in a situation quite like this one, so predicting what he will do is impossible.
    see j.o. marbury, hardaway, turkoglu, kleiza...etc.

    i think its more likely for a team to trade away their stars during the season... they see how it goes and if by january the playoffs are out of reach, they will usually will be looking to dump some players...

    take the 76ers for example... they didnt trade iggy before the season started.... they got a free look at how the team is doing for 2-3 months and if by january they are close to the bottom of the conference, they will move him..

    this is just an example...

    same with melo.

    last season we saw kevin martin, tracy mcgrady, antawn jamison, caron butler, stepehn jackson...etc traded DURING THE SEASON by teams who decided to go in a different direction...

  10. #50
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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    see j.o. marbury, hardaway, turkoglu, kleiza...etc.

    i think its more likely for a team to trade away their stars during the season... they see how it goes and if by january the playoffs are out of reach, they will usually will be looking to dump some players...

    take the 76ers for example... they didnt trade iggy before the season started.... they got a free look at how the team is doing for 2-3 months and if by january they are close to the bottom of the conference, they will move him..

    this is just an example...

    same with melo.

    last season we saw kevin martin, tracy mcgrady, antawn jamison, caron butler, stepehn jackson...etc traded DURING THE SEASON by teams who decided to go in a different direction...
    You're not disagreeing with me. I said that there are teams that become more desperate to make a deal, but not more teams. And a lot of times the trades that you mention go down before the trade deadline do so because the offers get better, not because teams are more willing to deal. Trade deadline deals are usually ones done by teams desperate to make a move. Teams are willing to offer more than during the summer.

    Besides, I still don't understand the point of your argument. Just because players WILL be available, doesn't mean they will be traded for by Colangelo.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You're not disagreeing with me. I said that there are teams that become more desperate to make a deal, but not more teams. And a lot of times the trades that you mention go down before the trade deadline do so because the offers get better, not because teams are more willing to deal. Trade deadline deals are usually ones done by teams desperate to make a move. Teams are willing to offer more than during the summer.

    Besides, I still don't understand the point of your argument. Just because players WILL be available, doesn't mean they will be traded for by Colangelo.
    cuz you questioned my prediction that BC will use the TPE...

    you said he didnt use in the summer when more players are available so there's no indication that he will use it...

    i said he will use it, and disagreed with your premise that more players are available in the summer...

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    tim you said BC doesnt have a history of trading away draft picks... you said nathan jawai was the only one...

    when in fact he traded the 1st round pick which gave the pacers roy hibbert.

    he then in the same year traded away j.o. for marion and gave miami a 1st round pick in that trade too.

    what if bosh decided to sign with any team other than miami... that 1st round pick would NOT BE COMING BACK...

    so right there i have proved that BC has traded away 1st round picks...

    so what part of my prediction do you have a problem with... everything i have predicted is based on BC's past...

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    ^ BC is notorious for trading away picks...you cant even argue it since he been here in 2 drafts we havent had a pick,what does that tell you ? lol

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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    but the celtics and the 2010 heat are the exception to the rule... it wouldnt make sense for the raptors to even fool themselves into thinking they can go out and sign 3 big name free agents...
    To who's rule? They did a rebuild and they're an example of a different kind of rebuild, one that involves getting guys who aren't all young and inexpensive. The Raptors lost their franchise player and brought in a bunch of new guys. The rebuild is in the works. The focus has changed.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    To who's rule? They did a rebuild and they're an example of a different kind of rebuild, one that involves getting guys who aren't all young and inexpensive. The Raptors lost their franchise player and brought in a bunch of new guys. The rebuild is in the works. The focus has changed.
    Its a bad retooling not a rebuild job and whats the focus exactly ?

    because what you are going to tell me and BC says are completely diff things...

  16. #56
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    They've been clearing changing their focus on court from strictly offense to more of a balance. I think a lot of it has to do with P.J. being in town and there being a lot of young impressionable and highly athletic players on roster.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    To who's rule? They did a rebuild and they're an example of a different kind of rebuild, one that involves getting guys who aren't all young and inexpensive. The Raptors lost their franchise player and brought in a bunch of new guys. The rebuild is in the works. The focus has changed.
    we have different definitions for "rebuild"

    i think rebuild means getting a young core of players and allowing them to grow and develop together.

    i think you think rebuild means signing free agents, trades, draft picks, and any other way you can exchange players from last year's team to this years.

    no one knows for sure which way is better.

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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    cuz you questioned my prediction that BC will use the TPE...

    you said he didnt use in the summer when more players are available so there's no indication that he will use it...

    i said he will use it, and disagreed with your premise that more players are available in the summer...
    Yes, I questioned your prediction, but arguing that some players will be available at the trade deadline that weren't during the summer doesn't backup your prediction. It's just arguing something different

    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    tim you said BC doesnt have a history of trading away draft picks... you said nathan jawai was the only one...

    when in fact he traded the 1st round pick which gave the pacers roy hibbert.

    he then in the same year traded away j.o. for marion and gave miami a 1st round pick in that trade too.

    what if bosh decided to sign with any team other than miami... that 1st round pick would NOT BE COMING BACK...

    so right there i have proved that BC has traded away 1st round picks...

    so what part of my prediction do you have a problem with... everything i have predicted is based on BC's past...
    Actually, all I stated was that Colangelo has only traded away one pick that he didn't get back while the GM of the Raptors. And as I stated, when a team is trying to win now, they sometimes trade away draft picks for veterans. The reasoning is that a veteran will have more value than a lower draft pick.

    And if Bosh had not gone to Miami, the Raptors probably wouldn't NEED the draft pick like they do now. If Bosh had re-signed, the last thing they'd need is yet another young player. They have quite a number now.

    And your logic is flawed if you are basing your prediction on Colangelo's past, as I have already stated...
    When Bosh was a Raptor, the focus was on trying to win now, which meant signing and trading for veterans. Now that he's gone, the focus is on retooling/rebuilding.
    You seem to continue to make points which I have already disputed, yet don't actually try and counter them.

    Here is what we know about Colangelo:

    - He will trade lower first round picks if he feels it will help the team take the next step. (Since the Raptors have no hope of making the playoffs, they won't have a lower first round pick to trade)
    - He is willing to trade talent for expiring contracts in order to sign a free agent. (The Raptors will already have cap room, so it doesn't apply)
    - He will sign free agents in an attempt to improve the team. (The Raptors already signed 25 year old Kleiza)
    - He has never been a position where he was in charge of a team without one possible All-Star. In other words, he's never been in the position he's been in before, so you can't predict how a person is going to behave in a situation they've never been in.
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    Quote Trife76 wrote: View Post
    ^ BC is notorious for trading away picks...you cant even argue it since he been here in 2 drafts we havent had a pick,what does that tell you ? lol
    That you need to brush up on your history a little. The 2007 pick was traded away by Glen Grunwald in exchange for Lamond Murray.
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    Quote Legalize-It wrote: View Post
    we have different definitions for "rebuild"

    i think rebuild means getting a young core of players and allowing them to grow and develop together.

    i think you think rebuild means signing free agents, trades, draft picks, and any other way you can exchange players from last year's team to this years.

    no one knows for sure which way is better.
    You're arguing semantics here. Who cares what one person's definition of rebuild is. To me, rebuilding simply means to start again, which is what the Raptors are basically doing. Before, they tried to build around Bosh. Without him they are rebuilding.

    Retooling is what I consider what they did last year when they signed Turkoglu and Jack and made a few trades. They were still trying to build around Bosh, but just trying to do it differently.

    Again, though, who really cares. It's semantics.
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