What a Win .... Take That Boston.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

Missed the game...

Did Rondo play?

No...

[Apollo]

No such a big win then because he's the heart and soul of that team. Still a step in the right direction though.

[Dr. James Naismith]

No such a big win then because he's the heart and soul of that team. Still a step in the right direction though.

Maybe so, but beating a team with 3 All-star calibre players like Pierce, Allen and Garnett to our zero ones (OK, maybe one in Bargnani) is still a big win in my books.

[JoePanini]

Doc, you know what would be pretty cool. If there was a thread which had the Raptor stats. As in the players and team etc...

[Dr. James Naismith]

Doc, you know what would be pretty cool. If there was a thread which had the Raptor stats. As in the players and team etc...

Go crazy mofo .... let me know once you've finished it and I'll "sticky" it for you.

[heinz57]

You said the Raps were gonna be a cellar dwellar, and your constantly hating on Bargs. I don't know, the perception I get from you is that your not really a fan but more of a critical bystander. There's nothing wrong with that, but you don't exactly scream hardcore fan. I mean the Raps just beat the Celtics and for some reason your saying there going to go on a 5 game losing streak, pretty weak...

in Tim's defense.. he's one of the few bargs critics on this board who i'll actually give some credit to... unlike the vast majority of bargs haters, he actually backs up his arguments.. i dont usually agree with him, but you cant ignore somebody who makes a legit argument..

unfortunately, he usually gets lumped in with the rest of the bargs-haters... most of whom are unintelligible dishpigs.

[JoePanini]

Go crazy mofo .... let me know once you've finished it and I'll "sticky" it for you.

One day

[Buddahfan]

Go crazy mofo .... let me know once you've finished it and I'll "sticky" it for you.

Please

There are at least a dozen or so good websites out there already that have the Raptors stats including the advanced ones in one form or another.

All that needs to be done is to link these web sites somewhere on Raptors Republic that is noticeable and accessible.

No big deal

[Tim W.]

in Tim's defense.. he's one of the few bargs critics on this board who i'll actually give some credit to... unlike the vast majority of bargs haters, he actually backs up his arguments.. i dont usually agree with him, but you cant ignore somebody who makes a legit argument..

unfortunately, he usually gets lumped in with the rest of the bargs-haters... most of whom are unintelligible dishpigs.

Thank you. I guess. And those other guys annoy me as much as they annoy everyone else.

[Buddahfan]

Thank you. I guess. And those other guys annoy me as much as they annoy everyone else.

It is hard to tell who is most responsible for Reggie and Bargs having the Raptors two lowest On Court Production Rating numbers among all the Raptors present and traded but my guess would be that it is not Bargs

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

[heinz57]

Thank you. I guess. And those other guys annoy me as much as they annoy everyone else.

the worst kind of person to have an argument with is the kind that will dismiss a legit argument because it contradicts their opinion.

in real life, we call those people women.

on the internet, we call them something similar.......... it starts with a B

[Len]

Bargnani is a very talented offensive player, but because I am a fan of the Raptors, I cannot stand by and say nothing when I feel that he cannot be part of the future if the goal is to win a Championship. You can disagree with me on that point, but please don't question my loyalty to the Raptors because you couldn't be more wrong.

I am a fan, but not one who blindly follows and cheers whoever they put in front of me. I'm a fan who is able to look at the team objectively and be critical when it is called for.

I think that if you are not a Bargnani hater you should really look back at how the first choice overall was handled. I do not know what was the best way to develop Bargnani player. I have just seen that the important players drafted in 2006 have been used as first or at least as second violins in their teams, since day one. Bargnani for Season 1-2 did not have any play designed for him and the team was playing Bosh in the post or the outside shooting (Merely nothing else), and do not forget that if he missed a shot, the lovely Sam will take him out of the game. 3-4 year with Triano something changed, but it was always a Bosh centered team and we all know what that meant with a selfish player like Bosh. This year he is the main guy, he is developing, he making the experience needed to be a great player and he definitely has the talent. I agree that he needs to be more tough, he needs to be a better defensively player catching more rebounds. But the toughness will come with the experience and with that will come also the rebounds. Therefore I will give him time and wait until the end of the season to say that he is not a player that can be part of the hypothetically Raptors' championship contenders.

[zazinteractive]

Maybe so, but beating a team with 3 All-star calibre players like Pierce, Allen and Garnett to our zero ones (OK, maybe one in Bargnani) is still a big win in my books.

Bargnani? That's pushing it

[Dr. James Naismith]

Bargnani? That's pushing it

Hence when I said "maybe".

Regardless if he's a terrible rebounder, the man definitely deserves consideration at the least. And this is coming from one of his biggest critics from over the years. Anything less is ignorance in my opinion.

[Tim W.]

I think that if you are not a Bargnani hater you should really look back at how the first choice overall was handled. I do not know what was the best way to develop Bargnani player. I have just seen that the important players drafted in 2006 have been used as first or at least as second violins in their teams, since day one. Bargnani for Season 1-2 did not have any play designed for him and the team was playing Bosh in the post or the outside shooting (Merely nothing else), and do not forget that if he missed a shot, the lovely Sam will take him out of the game. 3-4 year with Triano something changed, but it was always a Bosh centered team and we all know what that meant with a selfish player like Bosh. This year he is the main guy, he is developing, he making the experience needed to be a great player and he definitely has the talent. I agree that he needs to be more tough, he needs to be a better defensively player catching more rebounds. But the toughness will come with the experience and with that will come also the rebounds. Therefore I will give him time and wait until the end of the season to say that he is not a player that can be part of the hypothetically Raptors' championship contenders.

I'm sorry, but blaming Bargnani's weakness on how he's been handled is a cop out. Bargnani has been given every chance to succeed. He was groomed from day one to take over the center position and allowed to develop at his own rate. He wasn't thrown out into fray immediately, and wasn't left to stagnate on the bench. Besides, my main concern with Bargnani has absolutely nothing to do with what he does on the offensive end.

Bargnani has been a below average rebounder and defender since he was drafted. Without the pressure to be the main scorer, Bargnani should have been able to focus on developing those skills, but he hasn't. There is simply no excuse. If Bargnani were better in these areas, or if I felt we'd seen some half decent development over the last four years, I wouldn't have a problem. But I haven't. And I simply feel you can't win with a big man who is a liability in these two extremely important areas.

[Nick]

My prediction was that the Raptors were going to finish the season with 28 wins. And right now that's the rate that they're at. And I've never "hated" Bargnani. I've often been critical of him, and with due cause, but I've also defended him in a number of arguments. I am a very big fan of the Raptors. There's nothing I want more than for them to eventually win the Championship. And because of that, I am passionate in certain beliefs.

I have been extremely supportive of the way the team has performed this season, and the pieces that the team has. I've been vocal in my support for what the Raptors did in the offseason.

This reminds me a lot of what was going on in the US during the Bush administration. People who were critical of him, or the war in Iraq were labelled anti-American even though that couldn't be further from the truth. They were critical, in part, BECAUSE they loved their country. They didn't want to stand by and watch it be destroyed from within.

Bargnani is a very talented offensive player, but because I am a fan of the Raptors, I cannot stand by and say nothing when I feel that he cannot be part of the future if the goal is to win a Championship. You can disagree with me on that point, but please don't question my loyalty to the Raptors because you couldn't be more wrong.

I am a fan, but not one who blindly follows and cheers whoever they put in front of me. I'm a fan who is able to look at the team objectively and be critical when it is called for.

As far my comment about the 5 game losing streak, I'm simply being realistic. They've already gone on a 6 game losing streak this season. Last season they went on three 5 game losing streaks, and that team won 40 games. Teams go through streaks, both good and bad. Young and inexperienced teams like the Raptors will have their fair share. The thing, though, is even during their losing streaks, I will still remain positive because I tend to look at the big picture, rather than ride the wave from game to game.

During the preseason, when everyone was asking what happened to Bargnani because he couldn't score, I was one of the few that said I wasn't worried about his scoring, because I knew that was something he was good at. When everyone was saying that Calderon should be traded at the beginning of the year because he was playing like crap, I was confident he would pull himself back up.

The problem with the majority of the Raptor fan base is they get too high on the wins and too low on the losses. They don't see the forest for the trees. I'm not like that. Don't insult me because of it.

I know that your a big Raptors fan, its obvious you know allot about the team and basketball as well. I also will commend you for that fact that your not an erratic fan who is pumped when the team is up, but a hater when they are losing; neutral. I guess with you Tim, I just get confused with why you need to take the role you do. I also want the Raps to win a championship more then anything, I get goosebumps thinking about it! But regardless of the players that are out there, I will cheer them on regardless because thats what a real fan does. We weren't in the discussion of what a real fan is anyways, so I'll just shut my mouth now.

[Len]

I'm sorry, but blaming Bargnani's weakness on how he's been handled is a cop out. Bargnani has been given every chance to succeed. He was groomed from day one to take over the center position and allowed to develop at his own rate. He wasn't thrown out into fray immediately, and wasn't left to stagnate on the bench. Besides, my main concern with Bargnani has absolutely nothing to do with what he does on the offensive end.

Bargnani has been a below average rebounder and defender since he was drafted. Without the pressure to be the main scorer, Bargnani should have been able to focus on developing those skills, but he hasn't. There is simply no excuse. If Bargnani were better in these areas, or if I felt we'd seen some half decent development over the last four years, I wouldn't have a problem. But I haven't. And I simply feel you can't win with a big man who is a liability in these two extremely important areas.

I do not agree with you. Bargnani is not a below average defender (I agree rebounder). Defense is a team effort and you cannot blame a single guy if your team is hammered on the defensive end of the court. Andrea lacks in toughness when it comes to rebounding. He will improve in that when he will gain the experience and the confidence that comes in being the first option the guy to go.

[JoePanini]

I do not agree with you. Bargnani is not a below average defender (I agree rebounder). Defense is a team effort and you cannot blame a single guy if your team is hammered on the defensive end of the court. Andrea lacks in toughness when it comes to rebounding. He will improve in that when he will gain the experience and the confidence that comes in being the first option the guy to go.

Bargnani is a bad defender. And bringing up team effort doesn't help him. Our team is by no means a good defending team, but players like Amir Johnson, Sonny Weems and DeRozan have athleticism which helps them, also Amir's team defense is pretty decent. Bargnani, not so much. He is improving, he had a couple of good plays, on good nights but not good enough to "not be a below average" defender.

[JoePanini]

in Tim's defense.. he's one of the few bargs critics on this board who i'll actually give some credit to... unlike the vast majority of bargs haters, he actually backs up his arguments.. i dont usually agree with him, but you cant ignore somebody who makes a legit argument..

unfortunately, he usually gets lumped in with the rest of the bargs-haters... most of whom are unintelligible dishpigs.

+1

[JoePanini]

Please

There are at least a dozen or so good websites out there already that have the Raptors stats including the advanced ones in one form or another.

All that needs to be done is to link these web sites somewhere on Raptors Republic that is noticeable and accessible.

No big deal

Would you be so kind Buddha, in showing me how?