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Thread: Age old question - With or Without Bosh?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Default Age old question - With or Without Bosh?

    Sorry to douse more gas on the fire instead of letting it die down, but ive noticed a couple of things since Bosh left, and just want to share and see if others feel the same way.

    I dont have the stats to back these up, so Buddha, moderators, either help me or criticize me, hehehe

    -Better ball movement
    -with Andrea being the focal point in the offense, more players are scoring in double figures other than him
    -other players are getting attention re: young gunz, reggie's rebounding, andrea as a matchup nightmare, kleiza toughness, jack as a good backup pg
    -other players coming out and saying that toronto is actually a good place to play for

    What do you guys think?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    im just going to keep my mouth shut on this one...........................





    PSYCHE!!
    no im not!!!!

    you forgot:

    - less crappy DVDs in HMV
    - more lonely boys in the "village"
    - less "millionaires shopping at winners" sightings
    - less getting beat because of the franchise player's mouthy girlfriend

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    Raptors Republic Starter RaptorDan's Avatar
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    My wife thinks that the team has got better looking. She always thought Bosh looked like a type of parasite or the monster from Predator. She really likes the Barbosa acquisition.
    Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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    also noticed less wins

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    "Better ball movement": Have you seen Raptors 2006... their movement is so good than this year.

    "with Andrea being the focal point in the offense, more players are scoring in double figures other than him"
    - can I say better talent that "fit" into the running system. Turk can't run, JO can't run and JO is redundant when playing with Bosh (b/c they play similar game) ...


    "other players coming out and saying that toronto is actually a good place to play for"
    - JO, AP, and all the players says that when they are playing in the toronto...how is that related to the topic at hand?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jordan-Drexler's Avatar
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    Less Ball fakes

    Seriously the old addage is true : where Bosh-Less is More
    What if... Blazers had drafted both Drexler, Jordan?

    From 1992 Beginner's Guide to the NBA Finals, The Oregonian's special section. Published 6/3/1992.

    Michael Jordan was the #3 pick in the 1984 draft, after Portland selected Sam Bowie second.

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    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default There's a memory

    less getting beat because of the franchise player's mouthy girlfriend
    - heinz57

    If I recall right, she pissed off Lebron, and he went all postal on us.
    .

    "with Andrea being the focal point in the offense, more players are scoring in double figures other than him"
    - can I say better talent that "fit" into the running system. Turk can't run, JO can't run and JO is redundant when playing with Bosh (b/c they play similar game) ...
    - KakashiPrince

    The team is also gelling. There is no alpha-male, and although Bargs has been the consensus #1 option, they're okay with that, because Weems, Amir & Demar all read these blogs, and they feel sorry for the big Italian.
    .

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    Administrator Arsenalist's Avatar
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    Ball movement has been much better, you can make that out by just watching the games. A quick glance at the stats show better ball distribution as well. Last year we had only 3 guys shooting more than 9 shots a game, this year we have 6. The ball gets stuck a lot less now too, with Bosh he was the first option on the pick 'n pop or the elbow face-up and he was notorious for wasting time "making his move" which was basically holding the ball.

    All in all, this team is much more enjoyable to watch than anything since 2006-07.

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    The ball gets stuck a lot less now too, with Bosh he was the first option on the pick 'n pop or the elbow face-up and he was notorious for wasting time "making his move" which was basically holding the ball.
    I've always just called that his loading time.

    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    All in all, this team is much more enjoyable to watch than anything since 2006-07
    Emphatically agree. You've pretty much said what I was going to.

    But I think the biggest thing here without Bosh is the flexibility we have. We him re-signed, we'd be stuck on that treadmill. Now at least we have a pretty good chance to make some noise if we draft well.
    Last edited by WhatWhat; Tue Nov 23rd, 2010 at 08:15 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    But I think the biggest thing here without Bosh is the flexibility we have. We him re-signed, we'd be stuck on that treadmill.
    100% agree. The franchise would have been crippled for years to come. Thank you for 7 years CB4, but the product on the court and the future prospects are better now than in years.

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    The theme of this thread is interesting in as much that Miami, now with 3 possible #1 options have fallen into the same mode of playing. This is further exacerbated in the genuine desire of each of the 3 amigos to "share" the ball. The only problem is that when that happens it rarely comes back or moves around...the recipient on getting the ball then goes into auto mode which is what they had been used to before....try and score...resulting mostly in the others just hanging around watching which is what was happening here. No real team ball yet.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    also noticed less wins
    not really look at the 2009 record after 15 games. It was pretty bad after the west coast trip.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Deadallus's Avatar
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    A group of All Stars, does not a team make. - Yoda
    Deadallus

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    Without

    You cant win with bosh. MIA will turn it around, but its b/c they literally have a guy who some will call the "greatest athlete ever in the NBA" (think about that), and another once-in-a-generation player.

    So MIA is a unique situation. Anywhere else, signing bosh is a ticket to being a treadmill team, b/c he gets max money but is not a franchise player.

    The main problem I see for the Raps is that the way the organization/bosh approached it years leading into free agency, they did not get much value for him.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    also noticed less wins
    actually you are right, they were 7-7 after 14 games last year with bosh
    this year theyre 5-9

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    Raptors Republic Starter tonious35's Avatar
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    I'll go with Bosh-less. Due to the fact that there are no more whipped-by-GF players on our team (we had one last year and his name was Bosh) and besides considering Bargs, there is someone strong and willing enough to rebound the damn ball on either end.

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    Raptors Republic Starter tonious35's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    actually you are right, they were 7-7 after 14 games last year with bosh
    this year theyre 5-9
    But don't you noticed a win against Boston? Despite them having no Rondo, we finally beat them since being owned by them in the last 2 years.
    Last edited by tonious35; Tue Nov 23rd, 2010 at 10:33 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    The offense is definitely pretty good without Bosh as long as Reggie is not playing

    Seriously

    Per 100 Possessions

    Raptors numbers with Reggie on the court
    ---------------------------------------------
    Points For--------101.7
    Points Against----114.4
    ---------------------------
    Net Deficit-------- (12.8) rounded


    Raptors numbers with Reggie off the court
    ------------------------------------------
    Points For--------112.5
    Points Against----106.2
    -----------------------
    Net PLus----------6.3


    Reggies Net Numbers
    ---------------------------------------------
    On Court -----Minus-12.8
    Off Court------Plus---6.3
    ---------------------------
    Total Net for Reggie Minus 19.1

    What this all says is that per 100 possessions the Raptors are 19 points better per 100 possessions vs their opponents when Reggie goes to the bench as opposed to when he is on the court playing, despite his rebounds.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR11.HTM
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Nov 23rd, 2010 at 10:47 PM.
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    The offense is significantly worse, and it's not even close. The ball movement may look pretty, but we've dropped from 5th to 18th overall in offensive rating. Shooting percentage has plummeted from .482 to .449. The only things keeping our ORtg from being even worse is our offensive rebounding dominance which extends the offensive possession and our defense improving, leading to easier transition points. Otherwise, it would be pretty dismal. Our half-court offense hasn't been that good, but I think it's showing signs of improvement. Ball-sticking Bosh wasn't exactly pretty to watch last year, but he was damn efficient, I have to admit.

    Edit: and Buddah is quite correct about Reggie hurting the offense, other than OREBs. Hopefully, Ed Davis can take over the starter position by year end. The team needs the cajones that Reggie provides at this stage of development, IMO. And to give him credibility he has to have a significant role. Hard to put a stat to that.
    Last edited by golden; Tue Nov 23rd, 2010 at 10:58 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    The offense is significantly worse, and it's not even close. The ball movement may look pretty, but we've dropped from 5th to 18th overall in offensive rating. Shooting percentage has plummeted from .482 to .449. The only things keeping our ORtg from being even worse is our offensive rebounding dominance which extends the offensive possession and our defense improving, leading to easier transition points. Otherwise, it would be pretty dismal. Our half-court offense hasn't been that good, but I think it's showing signs of improvement. Ball-sticking Bosh wasn't exactly pretty to watch last year, but he was damn efficient, I have to admit.
    With Johnson on the court the Raptors are averaging 111.9 Points per 100 Possessions
    With Bosh on the court last season the Raptors averaged 112.0 Points per 100 Possessions

    So there is basically no difference in the Raptors scoring between when Johnson is on the court this season and when Bosh was on the court last season.

    The problem is that Johnson is only the court for 20 mpg, so you are correct that when Reggie is on the court the Raptors scoring is worse than last season when Bosh was on the court. Also you are correct that overall the Raptors are not scoring as much without Bosh, but only because Johnson can't stay on the court for 30+ mpg. I expect that overall the Raptors scoring will improve by about 5% in PPG with Bayless and when Davis gets up to speed. So by the all-star game I don't think that we will see much if any unfavorable numbers vs last season and they may in fact be better.
    Last edited by Buddahfan; Tue Nov 23rd, 2010 at 11:06 PM.
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    “As a captain, I played furiously. I drew a lot of fouls, but I brought everything I had to every practice and to every game. I left everything on the court because I simply wanted the team to win”
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