Age old question - With or Without Bosh?

[RaptorsFan4Life]

I personally like it without Bosh. Team is much more fun to watch.

BTW This thread needs a poll.

[teoserio]

I personally like it without Bosh. Team is much more fun to watch.

BTW This thread needs a poll.

+1

[ab7]

also noticed less wins

less wins come on be serious man

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

But don't you noticed a win against Boston? Despite them having no Rondo, we finally beat them since being owned by them in the last 2 years.

i was trying to please sleepz hehehe

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

The offense is significantly worse, and it's not even close. The ball movement may look pretty, but we've dropped from 5th to 18th overall in offensive rating. Shooting percentage has plummeted from .482 to .449. The only things keeping our ORtg from being even worse is our offensive rebounding dominance which extends the offensive possession and our defense improving, leading to easier transition points. Otherwise, it would be pretty dismal. Our half-court offense hasn't been that good, but I think it's showing signs of improvement. Ball-sticking Bosh wasn't exactly pretty to watch last year, but he was damn efficient, I have to admit.

would you mind posting the source where you got the offensive rating ranking of teams?

Bosh was efficient, but when he had the ball, it was stuck with him, and the offense wasnt flowing. he can have a 100%FGM night, but if the other players are not scoring, then the team has no chance of winning. thats why everybody's saying he was padding his stats because all his numbers looked good, but his teammates' didnt.

im not sure about the OR, i mean even if your OR is .200 but youre getting more shots in than your opponent then your team is still going to win the game.

[JoePanini]

I prefer the team without Bosh. More balanced, plus I haven't enjoyed Raptor games so much since Garbajosa last played.

[Jordan-Drexler]

With Johnson on the court the Raptors are averaging 111.9 Points per 100 Possessions
With Bosh on the court last season the Raptors averaged 112.0 Points per 100 Possessions

So there is basically no difference in the Raptors scoring between when Johnson is on the court this season and when Bosh was on the court last season.

The problem is that Johnson is only the court for 20 mpg, so you are correct that when Reggie is on the court the Raptors scoring is worse than last season when Bosh was on the court. Also you are correct that overall the Raptors are not scoring as much without Bosh, but only because Johnson can't stay on the court for 30+ mpg. I expect that overall the Raptors scoring will improve by about 5% in PPG with Bayless and when Davis gets up to speed. So by the all-star game I don't think that we will see much if any unfavorable numbers vs last season and they may in fact be better.

But since Bosh left we became a better offensive rebounding team and a better rebounding team (17th) while out rebounding our opponents by 2.2 rbs (9th in the league) in 14 games played. Most of this (unfortunaty for Bhudda) can be attributed to Reggie.
They are also 5TH IN THE LEAGUE IN ALLOWED REBOUNDS with just 39.2. Thats the same range as teams like SA, BOS, and ORLANDO. All this while having a 14th ranked offence and being 9th in allowed points. Since last year the raps have gotten statistically better or stayed the same in every catagory except points produced in offence (100.03, 3 less than last year) blocked shots (dont ask) and a drop off is assists (24th).
So yeah for a team that was supposed to be last in the league in every statistical catagory this year without bosh I think we're handling ourselves quite well.

BTW The Miami Cavaliers , oops I mean the Beat, sorry the Heat is 19th in the league in rebounds and are getting outrebounded by their opponents on average every night.

[heinz57]

BTW The Miami Cavaliers , oops I mean the Beat, sorry the Heat is 19th in the league in rebounds and are getting outrebounded by their opponents on average every night.

of course they are... thats what happens when your best rebounders are a SG & SF

[Buddahfan]

But since Bosh left we became a better offensive rebounding team and a better rebounding team (17th) while out rebounding our opponents by 2.2 rbs (9th in the league) in 14 games played. Most of this (unfortunaty for Bhudda) can be attributed to Reggie.
They are also 5TH IN THE LEAGUE IN ALLOWED REBOUNDS with just 39.2. Thats the same range as teams like SA, BOS, and ORLANDO. All this while having a 14th ranked offence and being 9th in allowed points. Since last year the raps have gotten statistically better or stayed the same in every catagory except points produced in offence (100.03, 3 less than last year) blocked shots (dont ask) and a drop off is assists (24th).
So yeah for a team that was supposed to be last in the league in every statistical catagory this year without bosh I think we're handling ourselves quite well.

BTW The Miami Cavaliers , oops I mean the Beat, sorry the Heat is 19th in the league in rebounds and are getting outrebounded by their opponents on average every night.

The fact is that the Raptors are 19.1 points worse per 100 possessions when Reggie is on the court then when he is off.

For my money when Davis is ready Triano should park Reggie's ass in a chair (they don't use a bench anymore) on the sidelines and keep him there unless the Raptors get deep into foul trouble.

He can take his rebounds to the sidelines.

The Raptors have other guys that can rebound and play a lot better than Reggie.

The offense sucks when he is on the court as does his overall defense.

He gets his rebounds by parking his ass under the basket and waiting for a missed shot.

In the meantime he lets every opponent drive to the basket for an uncontested layup.

[matt]

The theme of this thread is interesting in as much that Miami, now with 3 possible #1 options have fallen into the same mode of playing. This is further exacerbated in the genuine desire of each of the 3 amigos to "share" the ball. The only problem is that when that happens it rarely comes back or moves around...the recipient on getting the ball then goes into auto mode which is what they had been used to before....try and score...resulting mostly in the others just hanging around watching which is what was happening here. No real team ball yet.

You can't really put the blame on Lebron for that, he's actually been trying to make plays for the other guys when ever he's handling the ball, and if he sees an opening, he takes it.

Wade's approach is, give me the ball, and take a back-seat. he's not moving the ball like he's suppose to.

Maybe b/c all of those plays were for him? I don't know, but he has been racking up a butt load of shots and is shooting pretty bad right. Until they approach a team mentality, and get a good point guard, they will never achieve anything.

[Red and White]

I think the raptors are better with him.

You all are gonna hate on this, but we had a go to guy, and identity.

As of now, the raptors are worse without him. In a year or so, the raptors are better without him.

If bosh had stayed the development of our young players would have been hindered on offence.

Short Term-Not that much worse with out him, but would have done better with him.
Long Term-Will be better without him, will have a more solid, young, aggressive team. And hopefully their girlfriends will shut their mouths when we are up by a bit.

[Hotshot]

[golden]

@ tbhis

The stats come from basketball reference.

2010-11 (so far)
============
Off Rtg: 105.5 (18th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 108.2 (18th of 30)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2011.html

2009-10 (whole season)
==================
Off Rtg: 111.3 (5th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 113.2 (30th of 30)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2010.html

Ranking 5th overall in offense over an entire season is pretty freaking impressive, regardless of who (Bosh) or how (ball sticking) it was done.

I completely agree that getting more shots will win you the game. That's why offensive rebounds have a big effect on offensive rating calculation, assuming that you eventually convert the second or third chance. That's where Amir excels over Reggie. Reggie gets more offensive rebounds, but he gets blocked on the putbacks or turns the ball over much more. Amir can finish in traffic.

When Amir is out there, the Raps should toss it off the backboard or hit the rim intentionally as a strategy. lol.

[Buddahfan]

@ tbhis

The stats come from basketball reference.

2010-11 (so far)
============
Off Rtg: 105.5 (18th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 108.2 (18th of 30)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2011.html

2009-10 (whole season)
==================
Off Rtg: 111.3 (5th of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 113.2 (30th of 30)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2010.html

Ranking 5th overall in offense over an entire season is pretty freaking impressive, regardless of who (Bosh) or how (ball sticking) it was done.

I completely agree that getting more shots will win you the game. That's why offensive rebounds have a big effect on offensive rating calculation, assuming that you eventually convert the second or third chance. That's where Amir excels over Reggie. Reggie gets more offensive rebounds, but he gets blocked on the putbacks or turns the ball over much more. Amir can finish in traffic.

When Amir is out there, the Raps should toss it off the backboard or hit the rim intentionally as a strategy. lol.

There is no difference in the Raptors offense When Johnson is on the court and when Bosh was on the court last season. I already posted the numbers and links above on this thread.

Once Davis gets up to speed and he starts taking minutes from Reggie he may even be starting by the all-star game and with the replacement of Jack with Bayless the Raptors will increase their PPG.

Truth be told the real number you want to look at is Point Differential

Right now despite the Raptors being outscored by 19.1 Points Per 100 Possessions when Evans is on the court their Net Per Game Point Differential is only -2.5 per game and they rank 18th in this category.

10-11

Last year they were outscored by 1.6 points per game and ranked 19th

So in Net Point Differential per Game the Raptors are right now only down .9 of a point per game vs last season.

That number will get better and may even go positive by the all-star break depending on how fast Davis and Bayless can get up to speed.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

There is no way Bayless is starting this year. The points wont go up becuase Bayless hasn't proven he can be a good shooter in the NBA; 35% FG 21% 3P on the season.

[Buddahfan]

There is no way Bayless is starting this year. The points wont go up becuase Bayless hasn't proven he can be a good shooter in the NBA; 35% FG 21% 3P on the season.

Who said anything about Bayless starting?

I said

There is no difference in the Raptors offense When Johnson is on the court and when Bosh was on the court last season. I already posted the numbers and links above on this thread.

Once Davis gets up to speed and he starts taking minutes from Reggie he may even be starting by the all-star game and with the replacement of Jack with Bayless the Raptors will increase their PPG.

Truth be told the real number you want to look at is Point Differential

Right now despite the Raptors being outscored by 19.1 Points Per 100 Possessions when Evans is on the court their Net Per Game Point Differential is only -2.5 per game and they rank 18th in this category.

10-11

Last year they were outscored by 1.6 points per game and ranked 19th

So in Net Point Differential per Game the Raptors are right now only down .9 of a point per game vs last season.

That number will get better and may even go positive by the all-star break depending on how fast Davis and Bayless can get up to speed.

Bayless is replacing Jack unless you have another PG that you think my replace Jack.

Saying that Bayless is replacing Jack does not mean that Bayless will be starting, which he won't unless Calderon is injured.

Geez

[Multipaul]

I prefer the team without Bosh. More balanced, plus I haven't enjoyed Raptor games so much since Garbajosa last played.

Same here, so far this year no blow outs either! (fingers crossed)

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Same here, so far this year no blow outs either! (fingers crossed)

Wasnt the wizards game a blowout?

[Multipaul]

Wasnt the wizards game a blowout?

Damn you and your good memory! I'm trying to force these things out of my head.

Ok, lets say from the post-Jack era there has been no blowouts!

[DoNDaDDa]

Bosh sucks... it shouldnt be a big surprise but ever since bosh started putting up better numbers this season the heat have done nothing but loose! LOL i personally think bosh will always be a looser & he'll be traded before the season ends.... it couldnt have happened to a better douche bag then him too LOL