How Good Can Bayless Become?

[MangoKid]

I like Bayless, just like everyone here, but stop comparing him to All-star's and final MVP's. He's played what four games for this team?

I hope he becomes as good as D.J. Augustin and right now is comparable to Livingston.

Comparing him to Parker a final's MVP is silly.

Enjoy the kid, he'll be fun to watch as this team improves. His play also doesn't change the fact that this team needs to draft a PG.

Note: Hollinger's Playoff odd's has the Raptors 8th. They have the same record at this time last year. So much for this being a bad team.

Why is it silly? I'm saying that's what he COULD (once again, I capitalized the word...maybe next time I'll bold it and maybe put it in 72-point font) become. Where in my response did I say that he WILL become Parker? They're both uber quick guards who are not (or haven't had a reputation of being) pure point guards or who don't put up killer assist totals.

Comparisons at this point are valid since he's still quite young, has a lot of untapped potential and we haven't seen much of him. It's much like when you read draftexpress or nbadraft.net and they give you an NBA comparison (draftexpress gave him a best-case comparison of Monta Ellis while nbadraft.net gave him a best-case scenario of Gilbert Arenas). Does it mean they'll reach the comparison? No, not at all, but it gives you an idea of a similar player they COULD become should they play to their potential.

[WhatWhat]

Probably a Devin Harris type of player if he takes advantage of the huge opportunity here. Which is great, because we probably won't have a nearly high enough draft pick to snatch Irving. (We're the 8th seed if the Cavs lose today...) At FULL (!) potential, Tony Parker with a better shooting touch.

His PG skills look really underrated, I'm not seeing the tunnel vision everyone's taking about. In fact, him and Bargs seem to be developing a nice two-man game. I also think a lot of fans are weary of shoot first PGs a la Mike James and Ford.

I like his game a lot, but you know, small sample size and stuff.

[Raptor4Ever]

The poll was 'How GOOD CAN he become'? Looking at the plays he's made since his arrival, if he got the oppourtunity and the starters job, it is in my opinion that he very well COULD be an all-star.
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Based on what? The 4 games that you saw him play !! Can you really see him become as good as WestBrook, Rondo, Rose and Wall? If yes, based on what? Remeber he is not a Rookie and has been in this league for few years now.

Billups and Nelson were ALL-STARS already.

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Not relevent. The point is to see what is the level of an ALL-STAR PG is this league or how good a player can be to be considered a Solid starting PG in NBA.

Curry and Evans will be future all-stars, furthermore, they play in the Western Conference. Much like Chris Paul, and Deron Williams, and Steve Nash, and Tony Parker, and Jason Kidd, and Russell Westbrook.. I could go on, but you get the point.

Again, not relevent !!! Who cares who is in West and who is on East !! The point of the poll is evaluating Bayless talent and see where he can go.

I watched Bayless in Portland and I have seen him here as well. I can not see him becoming as good as any of the guys that I named ( 16 guys). I think at most, he can belong to the lower 16 top PG in this league.

However, that being said, He can suprise me and show dedication and great ethics now that he is given the time to learn and star in a team that he knows he will get his minutes and ...

But Talking about ALL-STAR and.. Is just too early. This is Typicall Buddah thread Rushing to Judge a Player based on very few games ...

[Matt52]

If the Raptors could get a possible franchhise calibre PG in the draft (unlikely but you never know) it would be great to have Bayless embrace a Leandro Barbosa role with the team (i.e. first guard off the bench and a 6th man of the year candidate year in and year out).

That is called having your cake and eating it too.

[Bendit]

For what it's worth, Bayless, to me, is a younger Jameer Nelson. There are the obvious physical differences but B's playing style looks similar as well as the tenacity. We must remember we haven't seen him play all that much yet and that for his two years in the league he hasn't played a large or definitive role yet. The jury is still out on his potential/ceiling for the league. Give him this year....as a matter of fact many on the Raps need this year for a good evaluation.

[Raptor4Ever]

The jury is still out on his potential/ceiling for the league. Give him this year....as a matter of fact many on the Raps need this year for a good evaluation.

This is something that I can agree with. All these comparisons:

DD = Kobe.
Amir= Lamar
AB = Pau
Bayless to an ALL-STAR

Davis to !!!

At this point of time plain stupid. Lets not get too excited and Offer another contract that makes us look back in a year or two and be like: WTF !!! How can we trade this guys NOW !!! We already have 2 of them in this team and we know BC loves to give this sort of contracts out !!


This year, all these guys will have plenty of time on the court. They can show what type of PLAYER they are on BOTH side of the court and ... Then we can see who we want to KEEP.

[bearvon]

I don't know what's wrong w this thread? It's asking how good he "could" be.

Ive watched him since high school and have always been a huge fan so I might be a little bias in saying that I believe he "could" become an all-star.

The biggest problems right now seem to be his jumpshot (inconsistent...not bad...unlike demar who has further to go), being prone to pick up fouls, his work in progress as a pg (which I think he can overcome in a Tony Parker type of way), and his short wingspan (prolly why he isn't the best finisher)

But it's hard to argue his speed, size, handles, and desire.

And I think it's his desire that will hopefully drive him into eventual all star status.

[AzureRealm]

Collison is over rated and is not better than Bayless.

Indiana is winning primarily because of Hibbert and Granger and not Collison.

I have watched Collison play since his days at UCLA and he has always been over hyped and over rated. Fans and writers like him because he is the prototypical small quick guard.

He is a decent PG but nothing more. I would take Bayless over him any day of the week. However I can see where some would take Collison over Bayless. I would not and we shall see over the next 5 - 10 seasons who guessed better.


Evans sucks

He can't do anything but drive to the basket.

His defense sucks, his shooting sucks and he is over rated but not so much over hyped anymore.

So he is 6'6".

Give us a break.

How tall was Chuck Nevitt?

P.S.

1. How good have the Kings played with him at the PG over the last two seasons. They have sucked.
2. I have seen Evans and Bayless play numerous times including probably all of their games against the Lakers and Clippers since they have been in the NBA. Plus a few other games. Evans sucks. Someday he may live up to his hype but I wouldn't bet on it. Bayless is better.

I don't care about hype. It does not affect my evaluation of players, and I hope it doesn't for you too.

I never said anything about Indiana's success being linked to Collison.
Unfortunately for many players in the NBA, college success is not linked to NBA success all the time. Similarly, college failures sometimes turn into surprise NBA careers. Thus, anything about UCLA does not concern me. I did not argue with you over who I would take; I simply said at this point, Collison is better than Bayless because he has proven it. Better shooter and passer, at this point. I do in fact think Bayless has the potential to be better than Collison.

With regards to Evans, I had him on my fantasy team last year so I watched more than just the Kings vs. Lakers/Clippers/few more. Yes, his defense isn't quite where it should be. Yes his shooting is subpar. But Bayless hasn't done anything to prove his defense is or isn't better, due to having less minutes. Also, having less minutes means you can play at a higher intensity, so if you're judging by on-ball defense and intensity, you'd have to consider Bayless' ability to do that over 36-37 minutes. In terms of shooting, Bayless also hasn't done anything to prove he's better than Tyreke. Just look up his past career stats. Sure he's off to a nice start in Toronto. But let's take a closer look, shall we?

Washington: 6-9, 66.7%
Atlanta: 1-5, 20%
Boston: 1-4, 25%
Philly: 4-7, 57.1%.

Notice anything?

With regards to height, I never said anything definitive, so don't ask for a break yet. All I said, is that it definitely gives players an advantage, and this you cannot deny. Yes, it is very possible to name a taller player who has underachieved. Or to name a tall player who has consistently been outperformed by a shorter player. Congrats. But there is no denying that, given all else the same, everyone would wish for an extra inch here or there. And you can't use the argument that Bayless that has growing to do. Tyreke is a year younger and has just as much time to develop.

And finally, you throw in the team success factor. Really? Sure, it means something regarding the impact a player makes on people around him. But just as much as the Kings have sucked, the Blazers and Hornet's success had little to do with Bayless. In other words, Bayless has not had a huge impact either. Place Bayless in Tyreke's shoes. You think the Kings are going to start winning? There's more than just Tyreke to fault. That team needs more talent. Blame it on the playing time? Maybe it's because the coaches are agreeing with me.

P.S. I never said anything about Bayless definitively not being able to develop better than both of these players. In fact, I sure hope he does. I do think he will develop better than Collison. Not sure about Tyreke. All I'm saying is at this point, Evans and Collison have proven themselves to be better. And you can talk all you want about how you "know" that they're better or not better, but the fact is, it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't translate to the court. Note here that I'm not arguing about how good Bayless COULD be. It's about how good he is now.

[jlongs]

I see him as a guy who will always be a better scorer than facilitator. He could be a starter on offensively-challenged teams, but otherwise would be a great 2nd PG off the bench who can provide more offense. But he's young and can still develop his game enough to get him an all-star nod. But imo, a solid starter is more likely. I'd say a la Jameer Nelson.

[Buddahfan]

I don't care about hype. It does not affect my evaluation of players, and I hope it doesn't for you too.

I never said anything about Indiana's success being linked to Collison.
Unfortunately for many players in the NBA, college success is not linked to NBA success all the time. Similarly, college failures sometimes turn into surprise NBA careers. Thus, anything about UCLA does not concern me. I did not argue with you over who I would take; I simply said at this point, Collison is better than Bayless because he has proven it. Better shooter and passer, at this point. I do in fact think Bayless has the potential to be better than Collison.

With regards to Evans, I had him on my fantasy team last year so I watched more than just the Kings vs. Lakers/Clippers/few more. Yes, his defense isn't quite where it should be. Yes his shooting is subpar. But Bayless hasn't done anything to prove his defense is or isn't better, due to having less minutes. Also, having less minutes means you can play at a higher intensity, so if you're judging by on-ball defense and intensity, you'd have to consider Bayless' ability to do that over 36-37 minutes. In terms of shooting, Bayless also hasn't done anything to prove he's better than Tyreke. Just look up his past career stats. Sure he's off to a nice start in Toronto. But let's take a closer look, shall we?

Washington: 6-9, 66.7%
Atlanta: 1-5, 20%
Boston: 1-4, 25%
Philly: 4-7, 57.1%.

Notice anything?

With regards to height, I never said anything definitive, so don't ask for a break yet. All I said, is that it definitely gives players an advantage, and this you cannot deny. Yes, it is very possible to name a taller player who has underachieved. Or to name a tall player who has consistently been outperformed by a shorter player. Congrats. But there is no denying that, given all else the same, everyone would wish for an extra inch here or there. And you can't use the argument that Bayless that has growing to do. Tyreke is a year younger and has just as much time to develop.

And finally, you throw in the team success factor. Really? Sure, it means something regarding the impact a player makes on people around him. But just as much as the Kings have sucked, the Blazers and Hornet's success had little to do with Bayless. In other words, Bayless has not had a huge impact either. Place Bayless in Tyreke's shoes. You think the Kings are going to start winning? There's more than just Tyreke to fault. That team needs more talent. Blame it on the playing time? Maybe it's because the coaches are agreeing with me.

P.S. I never said anything about Bayless definitively not being able to develop better than both of these players. In fact, I sure hope he does. I do think he will develop better than Collison. Not sure about Tyreke. All I'm saying is at this point, Evans and Collison have proven themselves to be better. And you can talk all you want about how you "know" that they're better or not better, but the fact is, it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't translate to the court. Note here that I'm not arguing about how good Bayless COULD be. It's about how good he is now.

Just because you get more playing time does not mean that you are better.

Collison got a break when Paul went down.

I do agree that Collison has shown more, but that is because he has had the opportunity both at NOH and Indiana. That however, does not make him better.

Evans sucks period, I don't care what he does for someone's fantasy team.

The fact is that he can't shoot worth sheet and he can't defend. He is also not as good a passer as Bayless is and has a higher career TOV% than Bayless though not by much. Bayless' Assist per 36 minute rate this season is higher than Evans has had in either of two seasons to date.

Evans is also a ball hog plus. His Usage rate is off the charts and the Kings keep losing. Nuff said.

[Buddahfan]

I see him as a guy who will always be a better scorer than facilitator. He could be a starter on offensively-challenged teams, but otherwise would be a great 2nd PG off the bench who can provide more offense. But he's young and can still develop his game enough to get him an all-star nod. But imo, a solid starter is more likely. I'd say a la Jameer Nelson.

Bayless is not a #2 any more than Bargnani, despite what he says is a PF. Yes they can both play those positions but not very well.

Bayless is a PG with a high TOV% who will learn to make better PG decisions as he gets more experience. I have already posted elsewhere that Bayless is averaging more Assists per 36 minutes than Billups did at a comparable age and about the same as Calderon did when he first joined the Raptors.

I don't see Bayless as a 10+ APG guy. However I think that he can put up within a couple of seasons Billups like numbers when Billups was in his prime of about 18 - 20 PPG and 8 - 10 APG.

[Raptor4Ever]

I have already posted elsewhere that Bayless is averaging more Assists per 36 minutes than Billups did at a comparable age and about the same as Calderon did when he first joined the Raptors.

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LOOOLLL, Buddah Did you find another man crush for this season ?? Based on your PER 36, Raptors are better than Lakers and we have few MVP in this team. I know this is just the start of your BS threads about this new crush of you and you will not rest and feed us all this non-sense till BC award him a long term huge contract !!!

Evans sucks period

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Really !! The guy put up numbers in his rookie season that only MJ and few others put up and you can dismiss him like this an praise Bayless who have been nothing BUT a bench warmer in the last 2 season a a best thing since sliced bread !!!

Come on man, Are you getiing paied for these threads ?

[Buddahfan]

This is something that I can agree with. All these comparisons:

DD = Kobe.
Amir= Lamar
AB = Pau
Bayless to an ALL-STAR

Davis to !!!

At this point of time plain stupid. Lets not get too excited and Offer another contract that makes us look back in a year or two and be like: WTF !!! How can we trade this guys NOW !!! We already have 2 of them in this team and we know BC loves to give this sort of contracts out !!


This year, all these guys will have plenty of time on the court. They can show what type of PLAYER they are on BOTH side of the court and ... Then we can see who we want to KEEP.

If you watch enough basketball or even too much you can eventually learn to spot what characteristics and ability a player has both on the court and off the court. From this, assuming no significant career injury it is not too difficult to project a player and how good they are going to be within reason.

For example it was obvious to the knowledgeable basketball fan when watching both Collison and Westbrook on the court together at UCLA that Westbrook was going to a lot better despite the hype that Collison got.

It was also pretty obvious that K. Love was going to be a big time NBA player watching him play at UCLA and knowing what type of dedicated athlete he is to realize that despite being undersized he was going to become a top notch NBA player.

You have to forget the scouting reports and ESPN BS and watch him/her play and learn about the player's personality then judge for yourself.

Watch the impact that they have on games and not just the points, rebounds and assists that they may accumulate. Any decent player can score if their USG% is off the chart. Even a player's rebounding rate can be distorted if that is all they are asked to do and that is all they do. Especially if their teammates defer to them on rebounds.

[JalenRose5]

I love Bayless! The move he pulled on John Wall that left him dazed and almost rolled his ankle! Amazing! Once he gets more playing time, which he will because Calderon is useless on defense, he will turn out to be one of the best point guards in the league in my opinion.

I love our new Raptors team now! I take back everything bad I said about Colangelo! This Raptors team is gonna be incredible in the next few years!

Bayless
DeRozan
Weems
Davis
Bargnani


It doesn't get any sicker!

[Matt52]

I love Bayless! The move he pulled on John Wall that left him dazed and almost rolled his ankle! Amazing! Once he gets more playing time, which he will because Calderon is useless on defense, he will turn out to be one of the best point guards in the league in my opinion.

I love our new Raptors team now! I take back everything bad I said about Colangelo! This Raptors team is gonna be incredible in the next few years!

Bayless
DeRozan
Weems
Davis
Bargnani


It doesn't get any sicker!

While still not a great defender, Calderon has played much better this year on the other side of the ball. The constant 'he is finally healthy' in the media might actually be true. He seems to be a great guy/teammate however from a bball perspective, an injury history perspective, and a financial perspective I hope Colangelo is able to unload him while there may be value for him. With the exception of the ATL game where every Raptor must have been hungover, he has played very well in the last 5 games.

I can't wait for the next 5 game losing skid to see if people still feel the same about BC. Here is a thread from a few weeks ago.

http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...egit-architect

3 weeks ago there were more haters than appreciators of BC.

[DoNDaDDa]

I love the optimism but.... unfortunatly i dont like to judge players by collage or summer league or D- league games.... NBA is a totaly different beast to overcome... most players will show glimses of stardom on givin nights.. very few sustain it long term...id rather give them credit when theve earned it & $ when theve proved they can sustain it.... nuff of all these pay for potential deals too!...

as a fan id be much happier aswell if these guys got paid at the end of every season based on performace...but i know the NBAPA would never agree to that...(Too many cash in & check out types out there these days)

[Prime]

For what it's worth, Bayless, to me, is a younger Jameer Nelson. There are the obvious physical differences but B's playing style looks similar as well as the tenacity. We must remember we haven't seen him play all that much yet and that for his two years in the league he hasn't played a large or definitive role yet. The jury is still out on his potential/ceiling for the league. Give him this year....as a matter of fact many on the Raps need this year for a good evaluation.

Except Jameer can shoot and Bayless can't.

[MangoKid]

Based on what? The 4 games that you saw him play !! Can you really see him become as good as WestBrook, Rondo, Rose and Wall? If yes, based on what? Remeber he is not a Rookie and has been in this league for few years now.

I don't know about you, but I watched the guy when he was at Arizona. You could tell that he was a talent back then. Even in garbage time in Portland, you could see the talent. Perhaps you didn't catch his performance in the playoffs last season when he got a chance to shine. He played quite well. Maybe you missed that. That's what I base it on. It's not like the guy was getting major minutes in Portland. I don't think he even averaged more than 16-17 mpg in a season. If given the oppourtunity to shine, I believe he could become a very special player.

Not relevent. The point is to see what is the level of an ALL-STAR PG is this league or how good a player can be to be considered a Solid starting PG in NBA.

How is it not relevant? Billups is an all-star guard. He's been an all-star 5 times. Could Bayless be an all-star? Perhaps. But he can't do that playing 20 minutes or less a night. The kid needs a chance to play major minutes before we find out.

Again, not relevent !!! Who cares who is in West and who is on East !! The point of the poll is evaluating Bayless talent and see where he can go.

How is it not relevant? Well, unless the NBA adopted the NHL all-star philosophy and is not going with eastern and western conferences and instead a pool of players, then it should matter. Given the right circumstances and if Bayless gets playing time and works really hard, then he could very well become an all star and it would be easier to make it as an east representative as opposed to the west.

[chris]

Except Jameer can shoot and Bayless can't.

bayless can shoot he just hasn't been very good at it in his limited NBA opportunities. he shot very well with the widcats though.

i think whoever said his ceiling is devin harris is bang on... both limited in playmaking ability but can get into the lane (and to the line) at will. a level below all-star, but still pretty good.

also following that reasoning i don't think tony parker is that much of a stretch, since if you stick tp on the nyets i don't think you're dramatically improving that team. conversely, harris on the spurs would not make them significantly worse.

[jlongs]

Bayless is not a #2 any more than Bargnani, despite what he says is a PF. Yes they can both play those positions but not very well.

Bayless is a PG with a high TOV% who will learn to make better PG decisions as he gets more experience. I have already posted elsewhere that Bayless is averaging more Assists per 36 minutes than Billups did at a comparable age and about the same as Calderon did when he first joined the Raptors.

I don't see Bayless as a 10+ APG guy. However I think that he can put up within a couple of seasons Billups like numbers when Billups was in his prime of about 18 - 20 PPG and 8 - 10 APG.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or not, but yes I don't see him as a 10+ assist guy either. Even 8-10 is a stretch for me, but it certainly is possible should he develop his PG vision more, as well as a consistent outside shot.

What I've seen from him so far (even from Portland) is that he has the potential to be a really good scoring PG. Not afraid to take it to the hole, and can take the contact (and make the and 1). If he manages to better his jump shot he won't be that much different from Nelson, maybe even Billups like you said. I just haven't seen that much potential from him in the playmaking/facilitating dept. It's possible, but I don't see it. So far.