View Poll Results: Who's "Right"?

Voters
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  • Israel has a right to defend itself and occupy Palestine.

    2 13.33%
  • Palestinians have a right to demand Freedom from Occupation

    7 46.67%
  • There is no "Right". They're both wrong.

    3 20.00%
  • What the ...This isn't Basketball...

    3 20.00%
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Thread: Israel-Palestine

  1. #1
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Default Israel-Palestine

    I know this is a VERY touchy subject, but I'm actually quite surprised this has not been discussed around these parts yet ... I know that as a basketball forum we tend to avoid the overly political discussions, but I'd say this is certainly ripe for debate with well over 1,000 civilian casualties.

    How do you guys feel about this "war" .. Is Israel right to be blindly shelling innocent civilians in what it claims is self defense ... Or are Palestinians right to demand the freedom to travel and move about as they please and import necessary supplies to develop a country.
    Last edited by Joey; Wed Jul 30th, 2014 at 09:12 PM.
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    I'm just going to leave this here as well for some background information:
    Last edited by Joey; Wed Jul 30th, 2014 at 09:19 PM.
    "I just dunked. Got a little dunk. Thatís nice." Terrence Ross

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Yup, Joey. It's very touchy subject. I'll say just that: Violence is a bad thing.

    We should avoid any discussions related religious conflicts. Too many disagreements when it comes to war conflicts, but religious wars - even more.

    P.S. I don't know history of Isreal and Palestine conflict.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    By the way, I drove by the Isreali embassy in London ( England ) last night... Full road was packed with pro-palestine protesters.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    All I wanna know is what Israel did to miff the US and the Brits....because up until now they had full support and full media control, now, the media has turned on them and thus public perception.

    Its all BS.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Yabadabayolo's Avatar
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    Im against any type of war. Regardless of what its about. But living in a Palestinian populated area, I gotta say im with them right now. The killing of innocent people is just stupid...
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  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    I think you mean Israel - Gaza.

    1) Gaza is not under occupation
    2) The West Bank (which is under occupation) is not fighting, this is just a Hamas conflict

    Now, I don't think Hamas' actions scream: "demand freedom from occupation".

    I think that Hamas specifically wants the blockades to be over with, which is fair, however the indiscriminate targeting of civilian targets would clearly force Israel to react. Not to mention the money and concrete and labour used to build the intense network of tunnels spreading into Israel and Egypt could've been used to build schools and hospitals and daycare centres, yet Hamas would rather delegate such resources to war-provoking tunnels than to their own citizens well fair.
    Its obvious Palestinians live in poverty, but instead of improving civilian infrastructure you focus on building terrorist infrastructure?

    Israel has a right to stop rocket fire, and to destroy these tunnels that bypass the Israeli border. This doesn't mean they have a right to kill innocents, and I think its horrid its gotten to that point. But just don't forget that it takes 2 to tango, and that when you poke the tiger, you get bit.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie Niagara Raptor's Avatar
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    my personal opinion is that neither side is willing to do what it takes to make peace so they both deserve each other
    but this recent escalation started because some Palestinian militants (unknown if they were affiliated with Hamas or not ) kidnapped 3 israeli teens, tortured and murdered them

    both sides have blood on their hands so i don't know why people choose one side over the other in terms of the death of civilians

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    My sympathies lie with the occupied (the Palestinians). You are correct Joey, this is a very tricky subject. Personally, the current Gaza conflict cannot be discussed in a vacuum because there is the larger conflict. Still the sheer large scale brutality in a confined zone involving mostly innocents in a collective punishment is just so fucking unfair.

    This is a fairly complex subject which for many has it's genesis in biblical times and the dispersal of jews from those lands. The start of the zionist movement, the holocaust and then creation of Israel over the objections of the indigenous peoples of Palestine were some forerunners to the current conflict. That the Palestinians are not allowed to have their own state and that Israel maintains an occupation forcibly as well as a slow absorption (thru settlements) of lands deemed Palestinian by the UN and US amongst others is an ongoing travesty.

    The Gaza conflict has happened before and will happen again I am afraid because the big gorilla in the room (a Palestinian homeland) lack of a 2 state solution has not materialized. The paradox is that there are many in Israel who agree with this viewpoint but their system of government seems to elect increasing numbers of right wing pols who are backing away from allowing this. And then we have the jewish lobby in the US who have great sway on political levers of power there. See what I mean...complex? I get more pessimistic with each passing year.

    For those who want to see a relatively reasoned documentary on the history of jews and the backstory to their return to what is now the country Israel...Simon Schama's The Story of the Jews. It is a 5 parter (by BBC/PBS) and provides perspective. While Schama admits to being a zionist himself he does not share Israel's political response on the main issue for the Palestinians.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Hamas kidnapped Isreali soldier just moments after humanitarian ceasefire started. Unacceptable.

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  13. #11
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote rocwell wrote: View Post
    Hamas kidnapped Isreali soldier just moments after humanitarian ceasefire started. Unacceptable.
    The saddest part is that without Hamas caring about their own citizens safety, no one is left to care for the Gazans.
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote rocwell wrote: View Post
    Hamas kidnapped Isreali soldier just moments after humanitarian ceasefire started. Unacceptable.
    While it is terrible, no one knows the circumstances behind that. Perhaps Israel instigated it, as it was in fact hours after the ceasefire began, not moments. And considering how many Gazans the Israeli government kidnaps .. er, sorry "arrests", I don't see it as out-of-bounds in this boundsless-war.
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    The saddest part is that without Hamas caring about their own citizens safety, no one is left to care for the Gazans.
    I'm not sure its a matter of Hamas not caring, I'd say its more a matter of where else are these people going to go?! Israel "warms" them to leave, moments before an air strike, and yet continues to close border crossings to these people, continue to confine them to an open air prison, continue to limit how far their boats can go off shore before blowing them out of the water. I'd say that is what's unacceptable here.
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  16. #14
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Israel has a right to stop rocket fire, and to destroy these tunnels that bypass the Israeli border. This doesn't mean they have a right to kill innocents, and I think its horrid its gotten to that point. But just don't forget that it takes 2 to tango, and that when you poke the tiger, you get bit.
    Lets also be clear that these are Israeli defined borders. Not UN defined borders. So really, Palestinians are just trying to break into their own land.
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  17. #15
    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    While it is terrible, no one knows the circumstances behind that. Perhaps Israel instigated it, as it was in fact hours after the ceasefire began, not moments. And considering how many Gazans the Israeli government kidnaps .. er, sorry "arrests", I don't see it as out-of-bounds in this boundsless-war.
    UN released statement that Israeli men were ambushed by Hamas just before 9:30am local time, less than an hour-and-half after the start of a 72-hour humanitarian ceasefire. Just before ambush, one of the Hamas boys emerged from a tunnel in the southern Gazan town of Rafah w/ suicide vest. Two Israeli soldiers were killed and one British-Israeli soldier kidnapped. We know circumstances behind this. Palestinian people, kids need help and fucking militants decide to kidnap Israeli soldier after ceasefire started. Unbelievable.

    EDIT: by the way, I'm not pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian. Even stupid people understand that both parties committed war crimes.
    Last edited by rocwell; Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 at 12:43 PM.

  18. #16
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote rocwell wrote: View Post
    EDIT: by the way, I'm not pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian. Even stupid people understand that both parties committed war crimes.
    If you are remotely interested in the conflict or world history or geopolitical machinations you should read up on the issues leading to the current chasm (not just the Gazagoing ons) between Palestinians and Israel. You will probably come up with a decision. My own take is that all of the Islamic inspired conflicts over the last 30 years approx. emanated from the lack of a solution to the Palestinian homeland problem/lack of. Terrorists are being created as we speak/write ....and the world is paying for this.
    Last edited by Bendit; Sat Aug 2nd, 2014 at 02:45 PM.

  19. #17
    Raptors Republic Rookie xRevise's Avatar
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  20. #18
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure its a matter of Hamas not caring, I'd say its more a matter of where else are these people going to go?! Israel "warms" them to leave, moments before an air strike, and yet continues to close border crossings to these people, continue to confine them to an open air prison, continue to limit how far their boats can go off shore before blowing them out of the water. I'd say that is what's unacceptable here.
    When Hamas breaks ceasefires, and uses them strategically to kidnap Israeli soldiers, they are pushing any 'Peace' agenda far from likelihood. How likely would Israel agree to other ceasefires if Hamas treats them as part of their strategy? That is how they endanger their own civilians. By not working within the conditions of peace agreements.
    Last edited by enlightenment; Sun Aug 3rd, 2014 at 01:20 AM.
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  21. #19
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    Lets also be clear that these are Israeli defined borders. Not UN defined borders. So really, Palestinians are just trying to break into their own land.
    Those are borders AGREED upon by Palestinians and Israel. Gaza was given to Palestinians after the 2nd intafada, and all occupying forces were removed from the region. Gaza has specific borders by what was given to the Palestinians. Anyways, do you think those tunnels are 'to break into their own land', or do you think those tunnels are there for Hamas soldiers to attack Israel?
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  22. #20
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Those are borders AGREED upon by Palestinians and Israel. Gaza was given to Palestinians after the 2nd intafada, and all occupying forces were removed from the region. Gaza has specific borders by what was given to the Palestinians. Anyways, do you think those tunnels are 'to break into their own land', or do you think those tunnels are there for Hamas soldiers to attack Israel?
    Right, and yet, it was ALL the Palestinians land before. And now all of a sudden someone is telling them where they can live on their own land??

    And I wouldn't say Palestinians agreed, per se. Because that's what this is all about.
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