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Thread: Yes, Jose is really better than Jack

  1. #1
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    Default Yes, Jose is really better than Jack

    It seems to me like many people have been eager for there to be another point guard controversy and have had a strong tendency to see way more in Jack than he's actually shown. Even back in preseason, when both the guards were struggling, this site would harp on Calderon's poor play while mostly ignoring how terribly Jack was running the offense. (It really was terrible -- it was scoring less than 90 points per 100 possessions). And he really was astonishingly terrible in the preseason and first 10 or so games of the season, shooting as badly as wright, turning the ball over a ton, and totally failing to run the offense.

    Even when Calderon was struggling, he still facilitated the offense, which Jack didn't.

    Jack has gotten a pass for all his bad play, and as soon as he has a few good games, a chorus of voices anoints him the new starter. I really don't get where this is coming from. He's a good, solid player, but he makes careless turnovers and his court vision is not on Calderon's level.

    Last year, the year where Calderon was hampered by injury? He still produced at an amazingly high level. His offensive production was ridiculous! People don't seem realise the amazing contribution Calderon makes to the team's offense. Last year, his offensive rating was 123. By comparison, Kobe's was 115 and Chris Paul's was 124.

    Now, his defensive rating was 112 and CP4's was 103. So yes, he gives away something on defense. But when Calderon is playing at his usual level, you gain way, way, way more on offense than you lose on defense. Like, it's not at all close. 11 points difference between offensive and defensive ratings is a big deal.

    Now, Calderon has played worse this season, and he's been injured again. But if Jack gets a pass for his terrible start, then so does Calderon. Calderon at least has the excuse that he didn't play all summer due to recuperating his injury -- what was Jack's excuse? Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging Jack, but the fact is that Calderon has still outplayed Jack this year, even though he's played well below the level he's capable of. The stats certainly back this up, and so does my impression watching the games. I'm not too impressed by the claims that people are 'more comfortable' with Jack running the offense, because it has been obvious since the beginning of the season that plenty of observers on this site have been eager to see more in Jack than is there.

    Now, if Jose never regains his form of the last 3 years, whether he or Jack is better might be a debate. But Jose had already started to play back to his old level before the injury. And if both Jose and Jack play at the level they're capable of, we'll have a not-quite all-star and a borderline starter (that is, someone who can start, but will generally be worse than whoever is starting for the other team) at the point guard spot. That's great! But let's stop forgetting what Jose has consistently given us for 3 years and overrating a good but not great player in Jack.

    For verification of their relative contributions, see
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2010.html
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2009.html
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2009.html
    http://www.82games.com/0809/0809TOR.HTM
    http://www.82games.com/0809/0809IND.HTM
    http://www.82games.com/0910/0910TOR.HTM

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Rookie huskies2raps's Avatar
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    well you've obvoiusly done your homework regarding this issue;

    i don't however think we should be debating over who is the flat-out better point guard - each has their respective strengths and weaknesses but essentially Jack starting is what makes more sense - Calderon coming off the bench would facilitate the kind of Atlantic division winning season the Raps had in '06 simply because Jose can tear apart the second units and keep the second unit energized by finding the likes of belinelli for open 3's and dishin to weems in the open court- we've all seen how calderon can play against second units and for the last few weeks we've seen jack provide much needed energy at the starting spot, adding life to what can sometimes seem like a lifeless unit -

    it doesn't matter who's a better point guard - it's all about FIT - i think the jack-calderon combo at the 1 spot will give the raps one of the top pg combos heading into the new year and by the time march/april hits, hopefully reggie's defensive intensity and impact on the team has been felt and the raps can (hopefully) head into the playoffs strong - yes, i'm an optimist but i do believe in this team and i think they can rack up some huge wins in the new year
    Last edited by huskies2raps; Thu Dec 24th, 2009 at 01:20 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie abstract's Avatar
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    Here come the Jose fanboys once again! Personally I never had anything against Jose and still don't, but I'm willing to acknowledge his shortcomings in certain areas. He's a beast at some things but he sucks at others.

    Seriously, this is only going to become a 'controversy' if the Calderon fans want to make it one. They played the 'selfish' card with TJ and made him look like the bad guy, when there was far more than that... it's not a polarized issue.

    Simply put, for the current team, Jack is a better fit for the starting unit and we can see this clearly over the last couple of weeks. Jose is an excellent perimeter shooter and is very careful with the ball, but Jack is earning his minutes the exact same way Jose earned his (i.e. coming off the bench) so I think Jack deserves the recognition and starting minutes.

    As soon as someone says anything that's remotely negative about Calderon, his apologists come out and label you a 'hater' and start showing you stats to prove their point about how awesome he is... that seems a bit insecure in my opinion. Even guys like Eric Smith and Doug Smith misinterpret these points.

    Let's just admit that Jose is an awesome player but it would probably benefit the team at this point if Jack started games because he pushes the ball better and is a better defender. With Jose coming off the bench with the second unit, we could have really strong offensive production for the full 48 minutes! Plus, our second unit has better defenders so he wouldn't get exposed with his 'atrocious defense' (in the words of Colangelo).

  4. #4
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    It seems to me like many people have been eager for there to be another point guard controversy and have had a strong tendency to see way more in Jack than he's actually shown. Even back in preseason, when both the guards were struggling, this site would harp on Calderon's poor play while mostly ignoring how terribly Jack was running the offense. (It really was terrible -- it was scoring less than 90 points per 100 possessions). And he really was astonishingly terrible in the preseason and first 10 or so games of the season, shooting as badly as wright, turning the ball over a ton, and totally failing to run the offense.

    Even when Calderon was struggling, he still facilitated the offense, which Jack didn't.

    Jack has gotten a pass for all his bad play, and as soon as he has a few good games, a chorus of voices anoints him the new starter. I really don't get where this is coming from. He's a good, solid player, but he makes careless turnovers and his court vision is not on Calderon's level.
    I personally feel what is happening now is similar to what happened with TJ and Jose. The team struggled a little and suddenly the fans were throwing TJ under the bus and labeling Jose their "Golden boy". They dissected the hell out of TJ's game but gave a free pass to Jose in every imaginable way. Issues with his game now, are the same issues back then. Jose's major problem is that he can't stay healthy. I feel that when he gets healthy his confidence will come back. Look back to his first season. He didn't play horrible but his confidence was lacking and he just happened to struggle with injuries that whole season. He couldn't get his legs fully into his shots and he wasn't as quick on his feet. Fast forward to now, similar scenario. When his body can meet his demands he will be very effective again. Jack is a solid bench PG but no chance in hell is he better than Jose Calderon. My how people forget quickly how much Jose has accomplished on the international stage or how well he played in Toronto in the not so distant past. I'm with you 100%.

    Quote malefax wrote: View Post
    Now, his defensive rating was 112 and CP4's was 103. So yes, he gives away something on defense. But when Calderon is playing at his usual level, you gain way, way, way more on offense than you lose on defense. Like, it's not at all close. 11 points difference between offensive and defensive ratings is a big deal.

    Now, Calderon has played worse this season, and he's been injured again. But if Jack gets a pass for his terrible start, then so does Calderon. Calderon at least has the excuse that he didn't play all summer due to recuperating his injury -- what was Jack's excuse? Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging Jack, but the fact is that Calderon has still outplayed Jack this year, even though he's played well below the level he's capable of. The stats certainly back this up, and so does my impression watching the games. I'm not too impressed by the claims that people are 'more comfortable' with Jack running the offense, because it has been obvious since the beginning of the season that plenty of observers on this site have been eager to see more in Jack than is there.
    Jose's defense has to improve, no two bones about it BUT I want to see him at 100% again and see how he does at that point. He's not exactly getting much help from Marco, DeMar, Jarret or Antoine though.

    Quote abstract wrote: View Post
    Here come the Jose fanboys once again! Personally I never had anything against Jose and still don't, but I'm willing to acknowledge his shortcomings in certain areas. He's a beast at some things but he sucks at others.
    I don't think that's a fair comment. He presented a very clear, thought out post.
    Last edited by Apollo; Thu Dec 24th, 2009 at 01:54 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote abstract wrote: View Post
    Seriously, this is only going to become a 'controversy' if the Calderon fans want to make it one. They played the 'selfish' card with TJ and made him look like the bad guy, when there was far more than that... it's not a polarized issue.

    Simply put, for the current team, Jack is a better fit for the starting unit and we can see this clearly over the last couple of weeks. Jose is an excellent perimeter shooter and is very careful with the ball, but Jack is earning his minutes the exact same way Jose earned his (i.e. coming off the bench) so I think Jack deserves the recognition and starting minutes.
    Well, that's one way of looking at it: you are definitely right that it won't be a controversy if everyone who disagrees with you doesn't say anything! But realistically, saying that the better player and current starter should come off the bench is the thing that is actually controversial. Just because some fans have jumped on that bandwagon doesn't make it less controversial. You're talking as if it's obvious that Jack is the better fit. It isn't, regardless whether you think so or not, and regardless whether it's true or not.

    I disagree that Jack is a better fit with the starting unit. If you look at the production of Jack with the other starters and Calderon with the other starters, Calderon's is better.

    As soon as someone says anything that's remotely negative about Calderon, his apologists come out and label you a 'hater' and start showing you stats to prove their point about how awesome he is... that seems a bit insecure in my opinion. Even guys like Eric Smith and Doug Smith misinterpret these points.
    I don't think this is fair -- certainly not with reference to me. My issue is not with criticism of Calderon. I think it's clear he has weaknesses. It's not like people said 'Calderon isn't as good as Chris Paul' and then I freaked out. People like you have been saying that Jack should start over Calderon, or that Jack is a better player than Calderon (as in the previous thread), and I disagree and want to explain why.

    Let's just admit that Jose is an awesome player but it would probably benefit the team at this point if Jack started games because he pushes the ball better and is a better defender. With Jose coming off the bench with the second unit, we could have really strong offensive production for the full 48 minutes! Plus, our second unit has better defenders so he wouldn't get exposed with his 'atrocious defense' (in the words of Colangelo).
    Well, I will admit that Jose is an awesome player, but I don't agree he should come off the bench. I think people are overreacting to a few good statlines by Jack (statlines that would look pretty ordinary if Calderon dropped them). And I think they don't fully appreciate the intangibles Jose brings to the Raps offense. For example, I don't think it's a coincidence DeRozan's scoring dropped off a cliff as soon as Jose was injured.

    I think the idea of having Calderon with the second unit is interesting, but I think it actually makes more sense to run Turk with the second unit (which does not mean, incidentally, he shouldn't start). I think the best solution is to always have one of Turk and Calderon on the floor.

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    I don't really get why Jose got a bad rep, this season.
    You can't compare Jose's play (before the injury this year) vs Jack's play (after Jose injuries) because Jack has the luxury to play teams that are under .500!!

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    Raptors Republic Rookie CalibreMC's Avatar
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    say what you will, stats this and stats that. But let me tell you sumthin' (yes i spelled sumthin' like that) Jack has proven way more capable to run the offence that this team needs. Jack bringing the d and the o is EXACTLY what we need. No pg controversy here. Jose should be second to Jack. When Jack's the starter we are SOOOOOOOOOOOO much better....believe it. Point Blank mon frere.

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    I agree with Malefax, Jose Calderon is the better player in my opinion, and he has done absolutely nothing that should cost him his starting role. People love to create controversial issues. Anyway, when Jose Calderon was playing, he was playing against much better teams than the teams that the Raptors are playing now. I mean, Jose saw teams like Dallas, Denver, Utah, Boston and Orlando, and when he was injured we faced teams like New Jersey, Detroit and New Orleans. Sports fans really seem to emotionally attach themselves to the ebb and flow of professional sports, they become overly dramatic during losing streaks and super optimistic during winning streaks. It just so happens that Jose was around when we were facing really good teams (and losing) and Jack is around now when we're facing bad teams (and winning). Jarret Jack is doing just what he was brought in to do. He's playing good backup PG minutes and he's keeping the team on track when Jose's out. I can almost guarantee that if Jose was playing now, and was out when the schedule was tougher, that there would be nowhere near as many people suggesting that Jack start permanently.

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    Quote Imanari wrote: View Post
    I agree with Malefax, Jose Calderon is the better player in my opinion, and he has done absolutely nothing that should cost him his starting role. People love to create controversial issues. Anyway, when Jose Calderon was playing, he was playing against much better teams than the teams that the Raptors are playing now. I mean, Jose saw teams like Dallas, Denver, Utah, Boston and Orlando, and when he was injured we faced teams like New Jersey, Detroit and New Orleans. Sports fans really seem to emotionally attach themselves to the ebb and flow of professional sports, they become overly dramatic during losing streaks and super optimistic during winning streaks. It just so happens that Jose was around when we were facing really good teams (and losing) and Jack is around now when we're facing bad teams (and winning). Jarret Jack is doing just what he was brought in to do. He's playing good backup PG minutes and he's keeping the team on track when Jose's out. I can almost guarantee that if Jose was playing now, and was out when the schedule was tougher, that there would be nowhere near as many people suggesting that Jack start permanently.
    I totally agree!

    We need to see if Jack can beat teams that are .500+

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    Quote CalibreMC wrote: View Post
    say what you will, stats this and stats that. But let me tell you sumthin' (yes i spelled sumthin' like that) Jack has proven way more capable to run the offence that this team needs. Jack bringing the d and the o is EXACTLY what we need. No pg controversy here. Jose should be second to Jack. When Jack's the starter we are SOOOOOOOOOOOO much better....believe it. Point Blank mon frere.
    +1 JJ doesn't need to dominate the ball as much deferring more to Hedo and allowing him to do what he does best distribute. The Ball is constantly moving and with it more body movement.
    Jose is not as good playing off the ball and his defense is a major libility. I recall we played below 500% teams and lost miserably with Jose starting Charlott and Memphis come to mind. I will never forget the Sunday game against Orland at the ACC no Jameer no Lewis no Pietrus and we got toasted by white chocolate.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie panagnos's Avatar
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    Malefax,


    Some people on this thread claim that you have done your homework. Where are the stats backing up your claims? Especially around team win/lose % and defense efficiency when either PG is on the floor. There is one thing I will agree with you: Calderon is a better PG that Jack, straight up. Calderon is not a better PG than Jack for the Raptors at this point. The reason this team has been successful during the stretch that Calderon has been out is because they have Turkoglu running the offense, therefore, making Jack's PG skills inconsequential. Jack is a better on ball defender and can make "clutch" shots where Calderon has not been able to do this.

    I am a big Calderon fan but I am a huge Raptors fan and right now the Raptors can do without Calderon......

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    Quote panagnos wrote: View Post
    Malefax,


    Some people on this thread claim that you have done your homework. Where are the stats backing up your claims? Especially around team win/lose % and defense efficiency when either PG is on the floor.
    4real. I can't find anything to substantiate claims that Calderon was getting better before his injury.

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    Quote panagnos wrote: View Post
    Malefax,

    Some people on this thread claim that you have done your homework. Where are the stats backing up your claims? Especially around team win/lose % and defense efficiency when either PG is on the floor. There is one thing I will agree with you: Calderon is a better PG that Jack, straight up. Calderon is not a better PG than Jack for the Raptors at this point. The reason this team has been successful during the stretch that Calderon has been out is because they have Turkoglu running the offense, therefore, making Jack's PG skills inconsequential. Jack is a better on ball defender and can make "clutch" shots where Calderon has not been able to do this.

    I am a big Calderon fan but I am a huge Raptors fan and right now the Raptors can do without Calderon......
    First of all, there was some stats in the OP + links to sites having a lot more stats. E.g.

    Statistically Jose is much better than Jack in offensive end and defensively they are actually not far from each other (slight edge to JJ). So I'd say if you want to look it from individual stats point of view, there is no denying Jose is better PG. Also I dont think many guys would argue Jose is a selfish stat studder, so that cant be the reason. And yes we have won some games lately with Jack, but we also lost some pretty awful games with him before these wins. The difference between these games: The opponents.

    I dont want to take anything away from Jack, he has played well for the last few games and was good also from the bench in the last games Jose did play. But Jack struggled in the early season even more than Jose did. So I dont see real evidence he would actually be better. As some people have said, some of Jacks deficiensies can be hidden by Turk handling a ball lot, which seems to make Turk a better player too, so atleast for him it might be better fit to play in starting lineup. And on the other hand our second unit might need a guy like Jose. So I'm more than willing to look at the option of JJ starting and Jose coming of the bench. Id still prefer Jose on the court in the end of the games.

    And when it comes to the defensive woes we have had, I dont think Jose deserves as much bad rap he has gotten. He is definately not all NBA defensive team material, but he gets too much blame. From what Ive seen Jack isnt actually much better and he was considered a good defender before coming to Toronto. From another perspective AP is looking like a decent defender again now that he is in a good defensive team. So basically I believe Jose is not as bad as he is thought to be, but he is playing in a team with not many good defenders (and one brutally bad big guy on defending P'n'R) and with a bad defensive scheme and that makes him (and everyone else too) look worse than he is.

    No matter how much you hate Jose, you got to admit that this team would be so much better with Jack and Jose as PG's (no matter who starts). Im more than willing to try JJ starting and Jose off the bench, and from all the things he has said and done before, Id bet Jose would be ready to try it out too. So no reason to make a PG controversy. We need them both. Jose is probably better player, but this team just might need JJ to start and Jose to come of the bench. Hopefully this is ok for Jose and Triano has the balls to try it out. If it seems it doesnt work, then go back to Jose starting.

    Oh and if you want to look at the wins we have gotten with Jack (Jose out) there are depleter Pistons, NO, NJ, Houston and Minnesota. During the stretch we also lost to Orlando, Miami and Milwaukee. Each one of the losses was ugly. The Houston game was the only quality win. Other than that we have won some pretty bad teams (NJ has 2 wins, Detroit not good healthy and is missing 3 starters, Minnesota is rebuilding, and NO is crashing back to mediocrity this season). Before that we were playing the toughest schedule in the league, woth lots of away games in west. So I dont think comparing the records of Jose-starting against JJ-starting is really fair.

    Oh and Im willing to admit Im a Jose fan. I like Jack too though and dont think there is any need for controversy.

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    Quote NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    4real. I can't find anything to substantiate claims that Calderon was getting better before his injury.
    The improvement I had in mind was his shooting, which was abysmal in preseason as well as in the first few games and has gradually improved since then. One good place to look is
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/splits/2010/

    where you can see the monthly splits in his shooting percentage, both overall, from 3, and freethrows. They illustrate the general trend, which was that his jumper was off badly to start and before he was injured appeared to be pretty much back to normal. You can look at the game logs for more detailed info on this.

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    Not sure if I sent my welcomes to you guys yet but just in case, welcome huskies2raps, abstract, Faithleader, thomas1, NewRapCity and Rudy-T. December no doubt has been an excellent month for Raptors Republic. So many good posters have joined this month! I hope you continue to add to great discussions such as this one.

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