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Thread: Raptors are done!.....for the next 5 years!

  1. #1
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    Default Raptors are done!.....for the next 5 years!

    This is my take on watching the Raptors all this season and the past 11 years or so, give or take a couple of games.

    There is no hope for playoffs or anything above an 7-8 seed for the next 5 years. Most likely this team will be in the lottery for the next half decade and this is the reason.

    1. It starts up top, management can't seem to define an identity for the Raptors. Are they a run-and-gun team like the Suns? Or are they a gritty defensive team with some athletic players? Apparently BC choses to have the worst of both worlds, the lack of commitment to defense while attempting to run in vain because the athletic wings can't shoot and spread the floor. Until they decide on an identity, nothing will happen. And getting a head coach which players can respect can't hurt either. Getting a head coach with some pedigree is of utmost importance when building a team, not some assistant who is clearly overmatched every game. (ie pretty much every Raptor coach minus Lenny Wilkins)

    2. Talent level- Anyone who thinks the Raptors have any talent needs to be honest with themselves. Yes they do have some ability, but not one Raptor is considered starting material on any playoff team. BC has accumulated a nice assortment of bench players and deemed 5 of them starters with the prime example being Calderon. Bargnani is a good sixth man due to his scoring ability and lack of ability to defend. The Evans/Amir combo and the Weems/Kleiza situation doesn't even need any explaination

    3. Cornerstone Players- They have none and haven't had any since Vince/Tmac era. Your best player on a team doesn't automatically make you a cornerstone player (ie Bosh) so I don't want to hear that it could happen. Franchise players are rare and getting the number 1 pick doesn't mean you will have one (Bargnani vs Dwight Howard). It takes a combination of luck and free agency to have a cornerstone player and no significant free agent will ever sign with Toronto. I repeat, NO SIGNIFICANT FREE AGENT WILL EVER SIGN WITH TORONTO so don't get your hopes up. I don't want to hear Turkoglu because he was aging and over-rated to begin with. I doubt without that EC Finals performance he would ever dreamed of getting 50 million. Now I'm sure some people will say Demar is a future cornerstone player but I'm pretty sure they are kidding themselves. If they are still serious I would ask them to watch tape on Demar and see if there is any significant improvement from last year to this year. His ceiling is lower than Andre Iguodala but I see him developing into a Ronnie Brewer type player. 3 years since high school and you hold your breath for every wide open jumper he takes.

    4. Cap Space- Not the most important aspect but can't be overlooked either. If you are going by the blueprint of building a contender there are two choices ; build a solid 9 man rotation in which 4 of them are considered NBA all stars or fight, scratch and claw (tank) for the right to draft/sign a franchise player and build thereafter. You could choose the first option and attempt to get you hands on 4 all-stars but its nearly impossible unless you get real lucky. Its how Detroit was built and probably will never happen again.The latter is the method most employed by NBA teams. Thats how almost every team turns into a contender. You save the cap space and once you have that player you find complementary pieces around him in free-agency or trade. Its why Orlando signed Lewis to a massive contract once Dwight was drafted. The Raptors decided to lock up their cap space with guys like Andrea,Kleiza, Amir, Hedo ect ect. The problem with that strategy is obvious, what happens to Bargnani if you draft someone better than him? Trading him seems simple but you will have to accept equal dollars back on a trade for players who might not fit. Before handing out any contract above 2 million EVERY GM has to ask themselves these same 2 questions if not signing a superstar.
    1. Do I have a superstar?-If YES- Does this free agent complement his game?
    2. Do I have a superstar?-If NO- Put the money back in your wallet and continue looking for one

    My main point is that the Raptors have made mind-blowing mistakes that placed them in the situation they are in now starting with not signing Tmac to an extension years ago. BC has compounded on those mistakes and thus should be fired. Its my belief that the moves he made in the offseason were not for the health of the franchise but rather his job security. If the Raptors have any hope is that they are going to be higher level lottery material for a few years giving them a chance at a top pick. Until then, they should blow the team up and start over. Oklahoma City has showed fans the blueprint, its up to Toronto to follow it or settle for nothing higher than 7-8 seed forever.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Rookie Blasterfi9's Avatar
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    dunno bout 5 years there, bud but yah awhile deffinently....

    well guess im gonna be catching up on reading and spend time outside during these winter months more consistently or w.e.

  3. #3
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    I totally agree with you ibzilla on most of what you have written. I don't not think that it will take 5 years or should take five years but the Raps do need to find a coach that knows what he is doing and that can strike fear in the players. by striking fear I mean a coach that is not afraid to hurt a players feelings by yanking them out of the game if he doesn't leave it all on the floor whenever he's out there.

    Now I know that as humans we cannot always give 100% due to whatever reasons, but as long as the player give a honest effort every night, he deserves playing time. If not, put someone else in that will do what is ask of him.

    Nice work ibzilla!

    PEACE (P)eople (E)verywhere (A)re (C)reated (E)qually PEACE, a word to live by!

  4. #4
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    one thing santa should give you a hug
    but yeah unless top 3 pick/s in next draft(s) we're doomed to averageness, not good enough to compete on a level to get in the playoffs let alone conference finals
    btw i want new blood in the gm chair
    if you lose for to long it sticks
    sometimes you need to cut the bad pieces out
    trade demar jose weems amir for expiring contracts hopefully we can slowly build a team with FA and drafting
    demar has no jumper as a SG thats so messed up+ bad defense
    weems his decisions in the lane are horrendous + no real 3 point shot + doesn't look to give a fuck
    jose could get you a high first rounder + expiring
    and find a way to get rid of the amir contract he's getting paid way to much , to pick up stupid fouls and getting benched
    andrea at 10mil for 5 years is great piece, he no franchise but he's a good piece at a good price
    try to resign a energy guy like reggie for next year on the cheap
    most FA agents BC has signed we're god awful ; bosh early on but then came kapono, jose at 9 mil ,amir overpaid , hedo overpaid,i'm prolly missing a few jack and kleiza are pretty cheap can be dealt easy so not to big of pro or minus
    please headhunters find us a better gm

  5. #5
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    I'm pretty sure Kevin Pritchard (the guy who built the Trailblazer) is available

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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    I can't argue much but it taking 5 years but I would much rather see a system built in Toronto the wait for a franchise player, Utah is a perfect example it doesn't matter whether it malone or boozer or Jefferson or milsap the system is the same and it works.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic Starter Deadallus's Avatar
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    I agree with the lack of identity but it think its more due to the player personnel they have. You can't be a run and gun team when you lack shooters, and you can't be a defensive team when your players are unwilling to consistantly put in the effort on the other end of the floor. As far as BC goes he has made some mistakes sure but he has always been quick to rid himself of those guys (Fred Jones, O'Neal, Turk, Jack) when it isn't working out. What they should have done is let Triano walk and gone after Byron Scott.

    Talent level is not elite but its not all that bad. Bayless has shown enough flashes that he may be a 20 5 and 5 guy in this league, and if we could get a legit centre I think Bargnani would thrive at the 4 spot. Ed Davis has some good upside, and Amir is a great 6th man, but yes we would still need a premier (preferably perimeter) player.

    Cornerstone players I touched on a bit above (mentioning we don't have one) and we would only really get one by A) getting lucky in the draft or B) overpaying a free agent who is probably a fringe cornerstone player.

    Cap space is really looking not to shabby for the Raps. Assuming they don't do something stupid like extending qualifying offers to Dorsey and Wright they only have a shade over $40 mill committed for 2011/2012. And after BC managed to dump Jack, Banks and Turk I'm sure he may be able to dump some more dead weight and shed a few more million off the cap. Even jumping in as a third team in a trade to provide some salary fodder and pick up a second round pick or two would work.

    I mean it doesn't look great, but its not all doom and gloom. Things can turn really quickly in the NBA you especially since there are some other teams that just as or worse off then the Raps.
    Deadallus

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    well we won the division in 2007.. had a inconsistent season last year but were ripping it up before the allstar break and were looking like a second tier Eastern conference team. Now without Bosh we are no question a basement team. The eastern conference has gotten so much better with chicago, miami, new york making huge improvements. What does this team need? We need a center that can block shots, change shots, get rebounds, and have lane intimidation. I honestly think we would be a better team with a more traditional center TRADE BARGNANI while he's making a little noise in the league. The guy has no concept of defense and we all know defense wins games... we cant do it with a center who is clueless

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Takes one deal. Look at Boston. They were in the tank one year, won it the next. Takes ONE move.

  10. #10
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    The reason why I said 5 years is because thats how long it will take to develop a few young guys (assuming they draft any) otherwise the Raps could have a lost decade coming up. As well as Bayless is playing he's not a true point so unless you have a guard who can be a Brandon Roy (pre-injury) and create for others, he'll be a good bench player. Do you pass on Kyrie Irving for Bayless? And for the Bargnani comment...Andrea has no business starting on any team other than Phoenix. He can't defend or rebound ( he doesn't even try). So many people say Jose can't play defense and that is true for the most part but this season he is at least TRYING, something Andrea has never done before. He's nothing more than "instant offense off the bench" guy right now, and it gets worse his 5 year extension kicks in this year.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Takes one deal. Look at Boston. They were in the tank one year, won it the next. Takes ONE move.
    Remember Boston had a system in place, a great coach and GM and caught a lucky break. A hall of fame player (Garnett) decided he wanted to leave his franchise the same year Paul Pierce demanded they trade him or improve. Had Paul Pierce made his demands a year earlier that championship would have never happened.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    nothing new with what you wrote. all your points pretty much have been discussed here in RR.
    you just summarized it all in one thread.

    cant compare to boston, lakers, spurs, etc.
    the only way the raps are ever going to contend, is if we get a superstar calibre player in the draft, then be lucky enough that the core players jive with that draftee, they all mesh and play with chemistry.
    no superstar calibre player will ever come to Toronto at the peak of his career. why? not because toronto is a bad city, but because toronto is not a basketball city. the history of this city is hockey rich, not basketball rich.
    why do you think garnett and allen went boston? because the team is rich in tradition and winning ways. boston is a boring place but because the organization has won numerous championships, these players know that history is on their side. same goes with the lakers, spurs and dallas. theyre always the top teams, not because their cities are glamorous but because theyre very rich in basketball tradition.

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    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    I think you're oversimplifying the situation. It's not that I don't agree with you that there are problems and we aren't going to be good for a while, but I think fans get these ideas in their heads and they stick. Much like the "run n gun" idea. It was never mentioned by anyone from the organization that it was goin to happen. "pros" who write articles claimed to see them goin that way but when Jay was approached in an interview back in the preseason he said absolutely not. It was goin to be about ball movement.

    We knew this year wasn't going to be great why does everyone complain about it? because we had a 4 game winning streak and were 8th for a while? I hope that's not why.

    Like any fan I want to see the team win. I just don't believe it was possible with Bosh here. They tried to make it work. Can you honestly say there was a bigger free agent that Turkoglu that summer, especially coming off his wicked finals appearance? Colangelo tried to make the Bosh thing work and got burned. He was liekly limited because his bosses wanted to see things work with Bosh.If you look at the Boston scenario, Pierce has been a great player but wanted to win and demanded improvements. It's been mentioned that they got a lucky break by getting Garnett. We never got that kind of break and now we'll have a weak team for a few years.

    Honestly they just have to get lucky in the draft before anyone will come this way. There was talk that Evan Turner would go before Wall. He went second and has been playing very badly. Crap happens. The bulls had some good breaks with Noah and Rose and then people liek Boozer wanted to join then. It's a little bit of strategy and a little bit of luck.

    the other thing too is that you can't really define what your team is until you have some kind of base, right? If you believe that Toronto has a good set of bench players, then how do you really define what your team is? You can't. You have to have a firm foundation to build on and the Raptors just do not have that right now.

    All in all I think that all of these accusations are harsh. Before you get mad at me though just know that I hate watching us lose. I hate watching poor defense and I hate seeing us get outhustled. It sucks. What can Bryan do about it right now? Nothing. The team has to get respect from drafting good players and the highest we've been is 9 and that was in a relatively poor draft.

    So here's to luck and here's to gritting out teeth and hoping for some player development this year

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    Agreed with almost everything you said. The point where you said Jay Triano was going with a "ball movement" type offense emphasizes my point. I saw the same interview and he said they weren't a run and gun team and later I saw an interview with one of the players and he said they were going to try to out run teams and play at a fast pace. The coach, gm, and players aren't on the same page as the team has no identity. Establishing that would be a good starting point and the blame should be placed solely on the GM. He had plenty of opportunities to succeed and ultimately failed. Its not like Toronto was the Knicks; he inherited a franchise that a good complimentary player (Bosh), a rookie of the year candidate and 7th overall pick (Charlie V), the number 1 pick in the draft and cap space and here we are years later worse off after giving the team several major changeovers (seemingly every year). Bad luck didn't send the Raptors down the drain for perhaps a decade, incompetence did. And you can't get lucky if you keep screwing up your fortunes
    Last edited by ibzilla; Fri Dec 17th, 2010 at 01:18 AM.

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    Quote MaGIX wrote: View Post
    one thing santa should give you a hug
    but yeah unless top 3 pick/s in next draft(s) we're doomed to averageness, not good enough to compete on a level to get in the playoffs let alone conference finals
    btw i want new blood in the gm chair
    if you lose for to long it sticks
    sometimes you need to cut the bad pieces out
    trade demar jose weems amir for expiring contracts hopefully we can slowly build a team with FA and drafting
    demar has no jumper as a SG thats so messed up+ bad defense
    weems his decisions in the lane are horrendous + no real 3 point shot + doesn't look to give a fuck
    jose could get you a high first rounder + expiring
    and find a way to get rid of the amir contract he's getting paid way to much , to pick up stupid fouls and getting benched
    andrea at 10mil for 5 years is great piece, he no franchise but he's a good piece at a good price
    try to resign a energy guy like reggie for next year on the cheap
    most FA agents BC has signed we're god awful ; bosh early on but then came kapono, jose at 9 mil ,amir overpaid , hedo overpaid,i'm prolly missing a few jack and kleiza are pretty cheap can be dealt easy so not to big of pro or minus
    please headhunters find us a better gm
    A better GM would be Jerry West if MLSE is willing to pay money to bring him out of retirement or Kevin Pritchard on the cheap.

  16. #16
    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    Agreed with almost everything you said. The point where you said Jay Triano was going with a "ball movement" type offense emphasizes my point. I saw the same interview and he said they weren't a run and gun team and later I saw an interview with one of the players and he said they were going to try to out run teams and play at a fast pace. The coach, gm, and players aren't on the same page as the team has no identity. Establishing that would be a good starting point and the blame should be placed solely on the GM. He had plenty of opportunities to succeed and ultimately failed. Its not like Toronto was the Knicks; he inherited a franchise that a good complimentary player (Bosh), a rookie of the year candidate and 7th overall pick (Charlie V), the number 1 pick in the draft and cap space and here we are years later worse off after giving the team several major changeovers (seemingly every year). Bad luck didn't send the Raptors down the drain for perhaps a decade, incompetence did. And you can't get lucky if you keep screwing up your fortunes
    After juSt looking back at the 2005 NBA draft, I think this is where the Raptors truely fell apart and made some horrible judgement calls. The raps could have had Andrew Bynum and Danny granger. Why the hell would they draft Charlie V who is also a PF at the time... things could have been very diferent.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Takes one deal. Look at Boston. They were in the tank one year, won it the next. Takes ONE move.
    Actually, it was a whole series of events, not one move. Boston was trying to tank in order to be in a position to draft Oden or Durant. When it was revealed that they'd draft 5th, Ainge dealt the pick along with Delonte West and Wally Sczerbiak to Seattle for Allen. Originally, the Celtics were going after Garnett and offering up the 5th pick, but Garnett let it be known that he didn't want to go to Boston. When Boston acquired Allen, then Garnett's stance softened.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote pesterm1 wrote: View Post
    After juSt looking back at the 2005 NBA draft, I think this is where the Raptors truely fell apart and made some horrible judgement calls. The raps could have had Andrew Bynum and Danny granger. Why the hell would they draft Charlie V who is also a PF at the time... things could have been very diferent.
    The more horrible call was Babcock not trading the 7th, 16th pick and MoPete for the 4th pick.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    A better GM would be Jerry West if MLSE is willing to pay money to bring him out of retirement or Kevin Pritchard on the cheap.
    Pritchard won't be going anywhere for cheap. Someone's gonna have to pay through the nose for him.

  20. #20
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    Agreed with almost everything you said. The point where you said Jay Triano was going with a "ball movement" type offense emphasizes my point. I saw the same interview and he said they weren't a run and gun team and later I saw an interview with one of the players and he said they were going to try to out run teams and play at a fast pace. The coach, gm, and players aren't on the same page as the team has no identity. Establishing that would be a good starting point and the blame should be placed solely on the GM. He had plenty of opportunities to succeed and ultimately failed. Its not like Toronto was the Knicks; he inherited a franchise that a good complimentary player (Bosh), a rookie of the year candidate and 7th overall pick (Charlie V), the number 1 pick in the draft and cap space and here we are years later worse off after giving the team several major changeovers (seemingly every year). Bad luck didn't send the Raptors down the drain for perhaps a decade, incompetence did. And you can't get lucky if you keep screwing up your fortunes
    The moves Colangelo made when he came over was pretty clever. He tapped into a market most never did. Considering he was handcuffed by the amount of space he had - he COULDN'T go into luxury tax - the roster he assembled and the pieces he moved were pretty impressive. Bonner and Eric Williams for Nesterovic was a solid move, Araujo for Humphries was a very solid move. Going to Europe and signing Parker and Garbojosa were underrated moves. The only identity this team had was that it was they were going to play an uptempo style of game. We had one supporting cast star and a bunch of solid (- at best) players. Most general managers would have paid out the ass for Ben Wallace, who was the hottest name free agent out there. For what he had, I think the moves Colangelo pulled off were solid. Also, he's been one to quickly remedy any mistakes he makes (Fred Jones, O'Neal, Turkoglu). Now that we're not catering to a B-type superstar, this team can focus on playing team ball and collecting assets along and buidind a team the right way, from the ground up with solid young players with high ceilings.

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