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Thread: Raptors are done!.....for the next 5 years!

  1. #21
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    It won't take the Raptors 5 years to be of relevance. They'll be in the playoffs in another 2 seasons.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    It won't take the Raptors 5 years to be of relevance. They'll be in the playoffs in another 2 seasons.
    True but nothing more than an 8 seed waiting to be swept by Miami. I said 5 years because it will take that long to develop a superstar (assuming they draft one soon). It took Durant and Westbook 3 years overall but I doubt the raps can get two superstars in consecutive drafts hence 5 years or more.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    This is my take on watching the Raptors all this season and the past 11 years or so, give or take a couple of games.

    There is no hope for playoffs or anything above an 7-8 seed for the next 5 years. Most likely this team will be in the lottery for the next half decade and this is the reason.
    Over the next 5 years? That's a bit far fetched. You don;t know what the economic climate will look like after this season. The NBA could implement a hard cap and throw a monkeywrench into a lot of teams' plans.


    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    1. It starts up top, management can't seem to define an identity for the Raptors. Are they a run-and-gun team like the Suns? Or are they a gritty defensive team with some athletic players? Apparently BC choses to have the worst of both worlds, the lack of commitment to defense while attempting to run in vain because the athletic wings can't shoot and spread the floor. Until they decide on an identity, nothing will happen. And getting a head coach which players can respect can't hurt either. Getting a head coach with some pedigree is of utmost importance when building a team, not some assistant who is clearly overmatched every game. (ie pretty much every Raptor coach minus Lenny Wilkins)
    You're right in the fact that this team does not have an identity. However, right now, they're on the right track by acquiring young, athletic talent through the draft and through trades. Getting household name coach shouldn't be the concern of this team right now. This team isn't at that point right now. The focus should be having a coach in place that is a teacher and who can develop young players. I wouldn't say that Jay is overmatched every game. Triano just doesn't have the talent level on his team that other teams have. At the moment, I'd say he's doing a very good job with what he has. By the way, in regards to previous Raptors' coaches, Butch Carter wasn't overmatched. Lenny by the end was overmatched. He didn't know what he was doing.

    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    2. Talent level- Anyone who thinks the Raptors have any talent needs to be honest with themselves. Yes they do have some ability, but not one Raptor is considered starting material on any playoff team. BC has accumulated a nice assortment of bench players and deemed 5 of them starters with the prime example being Calderon. Bargnani is a good sixth man due to his scoring ability and lack of ability to defend. The Evans/Amir combo and the Weems/Kleiza situation doesn't even need any explaination
    Whoever said that the Raptors have amazing talent? The players have talent, we have young players who have the potential to be very good players. How do they take the step of becomming very good players? With a coach who can develop young talent. I disagree with your comments that Bargnani is a good sixth man. I say he's a very good starter in this league. WHo did the Raptors acquire to get Evans? Kapono. And what has Kapono done since he went to Philadelphia? Not much. Who did the Raptors give up to acquire Johnson? Delfino. What's Delfino saying this year? Not much. What about Weems? Ukic is not even in the league anymore.

    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    3. Cornerstone Players- They have none and haven't had any since Vince/Tmac era. Your best player on a team doesn't automatically make you a cornerstone player (ie Bosh) so I don't want to hear that it could happen. Franchise players are rare and getting the number 1 pick doesn't mean you will have one (Bargnani vs Dwight Howard). It takes a combination of luck and free agency to have a cornerstone player and no significant free agent will ever sign with Toronto. I repeat, NO SIGNIFICANT FREE AGENT WILL EVER SIGN WITH TORONTO so don't get your hopes up. I don't want to hear Turkoglu because he was aging and over-rated to begin with. I doubt without that EC Finals performance he would ever dreamed of getting 50 million. Now I'm sure some people will say Demar is a future cornerstone player but I'm pretty sure they are kidding themselves. If they are still serious I would ask them to watch tape on Demar and see if there is any significant improvement from last year to this year. His ceiling is lower than Andre Iguodala but I see him developing into a Ronnie Brewer type player. 3 years since high school and you hold your breath for every wide open jumper he takes.

    I would consider Turkoglu a signficant free agent. He showed over the years in Orlando his ability to hit the big shot and to be clutch. He was voted most improved player one season and was considered a very good player. If you're signing a contract that's in excess of 10 million per season, I'd say it's a significant signing. And for you to say that no significant free agent will ever sign with Toronto is a very shoddy statement. If the Raptors start winning, you will have flocks of players wanting to sign here. Winning cures everything. Most players love Toronto as it is.
    Demar isn't a future cornerstone player. He could develop into a very good player - and shows glimpses of it. He's still only 21 and learning. If Demar develops into a Ronnie Brewer player, I wouldn't be disappointed with that. Brewer is a very good player. Demar's ceiling is probably 17-18 ppg with 4-5 board and 2-3 assists. So really, he could be just like Iguodala. The athleticism is there. He just has to have a tighter handle and keep working on his jumper.

    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    4. Cap Space- Not the most important aspect but can't be overlooked either. If you are going by the blueprint of building a contender there are two choices ; build a solid 9 man rotation in which 4 of them are considered NBA all stars or fight, scratch and claw (tank) for the right to draft/sign a franchise player and build thereafter. You could choose the first option and attempt to get you hands on 4 all-stars but its nearly impossible unless you get real lucky. Its how Detroit was built and probably will never happen again.The latter is the method most employed by NBA teams. Thats how almost every team turns into a contender. You save the cap space and once you have that player you find complementary pieces around him in free-agency or trade. Its why Orlando signed Lewis to a massive contract once Dwight was drafted. The Raptors decided to lock up their cap space with guys like Andrea,Kleiza, Amir, Hedo ect ect. The problem with that strategy is obvious, what happens to Bargnani if you draft someone better than him? Trading him seems simple but you will have to accept equal dollars back on a trade for players who might not fit. Before handing out any contract above 2 million EVERY GM has to ask themselves these same 2 questions if not signing a superstar.
    1. Do I have a superstar?-If YES- Does this free agent complement his game?
    2. Do I have a superstar?-If NO- Put the money back in your wallet and continue looking for one
    Detroit was built on 4-all stars? What 4 all-stars? They weren't all-stars when they came to Detroit. Ben Wallace was a throw-in and an after-thought. Richard Hamilton was spinning his wheels in Washington. Billups was a solid signing, but he wasn't an all-star.
    Those guys happened to mesh, they created an identity and with the right coach made it far.
    The Raptors locked up guys like Bargnani (who would have received more than 10M on the open market), Kleiza to decent contracts. The Johnson signing was a tad excessive, but it wasn't overblown excessive. The gamble is that Johnson's game will improve and will grow with the team. That isn't a waste of cap space.

    The comment that made me laugh so hard was...
    2. Do I have a superstar?-If NO- Put the money back in your wallet and continue looking for one
    Yet, the comment before, you said..
    I repeat, NO SIGNIFICANT FREE AGENT WILL EVER SIGN WITH TORONTO so don't get your hopes up.
    Oh my goodness. I needed that one. Because, you know, superstars grow on trees and they're easily attainable, yet none are going to ever sign in Toronto. Well, which one is it?


    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    My main point is that the Raptors have made mind-blowing mistakes that placed them in the situation they are in now starting with not signing Tmac to an extension years ago. BC has compounded on those mistakes and thus should be fired. Its my belief that the moves he made in the offseason were not for the health of the franchise but rather his job security. If the Raptors have any hope is that they are going to be higher level lottery material for a few years giving them a chance at a top pick. Until then, they should blow the team up and start over. Oklahoma City has showed fans the blueprint, its up to Toronto to follow it or settle for nothing higher than 7-8 seed forever.
    Mind-blowing mistakes? Not signing McGrady? I'm sorry, how many teams has McGrady lead to past the 1st round of the playoffs?
    McGrady never wanted to re-sign here. He didn't like the cold and he didn't like the fact that he had to pay taxes.
    Your comments are all over the damn place. However, what I gathered from it was a rant that's just out of frustration for how they're performing this season. Any knowledgable fan would know that this team was going to struggle more often than not this year and that this season was all about learning and developing.
    The Raptors are on the right track. You want to build a team that's going to compete year in and out for the Eastern Conference title, not some band-aid fix that's going to get them a perennial 7th-8th seed before bowing out.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    The moves Colangelo made when he came over was pretty clever. He tapped into a market most never did. Considering he was handcuffed by the amount of space he had - he COULDN'T go into luxury tax - the roster he assembled and the pieces he moved were pretty impressive. Bonner and Eric Williams for Nesterovic was a solid move, Araujo for Humphries was a very solid move. Going to Europe and signing Parker and Garbojosa were underrated moves. The only identity this team had was that it was they were going to play an uptempo style of game. We had one supporting cast star and a bunch of solid (- at best) players. Most general managers would have paid out the ass for Ben Wallace, who was the hottest name free agent out there. For what he had, I think the moves Colangelo pulled off were solid. Also, he's been one to quickly remedy any mistakes he makes (Fred Jones, O'Neal, Turkoglu). Now that we're not catering to a B-type superstar, this team can focus on playing team ball and collecting assets along and buidind a team the right way, from the ground up with solid young players with high ceilings.
    sorry mango, doesnt matter how many times you explain it, donks here see Colangelo's moves as all failures because of O'Neal, Turk and Bosh leaving. Ive explained a million times that his acquisitions were right at the time they were made, but just didnt pan out. And you cant put that against him because he is not a fortune teller, he cant predict the future. Of course if he had known Turk would be a baby, Bosh would leave and JO would be injured half the time then of course he wouldve made different moves. But if he knew all that then he'd probably just pick the winning number in lottomax and sit on a beach somewhere for the rest of his life.

    ive had it with moves. IMO, leave the core, get a SG/SF who can create his own shot and a shot-blocking, defensive C and we're all good. Let the team grow with each other, let the coach grow with the team. Leave Bayless, Jose, DD, Amir, Davis and Bargs and get rid of the rest. This is the core. Id put Weems in there if they gave him an extension earlier, but it seems he might not even get it. Weems is good right now coz well, there's nobody else trying to do anything in this team, but put him with the spurs or lakers and he'll probably texting Banks and asking for advice on how not to get bored at the end of the bench.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    True but nothing more than an 8 seed waiting to be swept by Miami. I said 5 years because it will take that long to develop a superstar (assuming they draft one soon). It took Durant and Westbook 3 years overall but I doubt the raps can get two superstars in consecutive drafts hence 5 years or more.

    2 more seasons with the way Demar, Andrea, Ed and Jerryd are playing and will continue to progress, there's no way that they'd be a number 8 seed.

    Your notion of having 2 superstars in order to compete is ridiculous.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    True but nothing more than an 8 seed waiting to be swept by Miami. I said 5 years because it will take that long to develop a superstar (assuming they draft one soon). It took Durant and Westbook 3 years overall but I doubt the raps can get two superstars in consecutive drafts hence 5 years or more.
    I agree with Mango. Eventhough 2 years seems to be far-fetched, 2 years should be the end all be all.
    You cant wait for 5 years. Amir will be 28, DD 25, Jose 35, bargs, 28. if they become a contender in 5 years then yeah thats worth it, but to reach the playoffs or even the 2nd round, that would be missing the target.
    if they keep getting young guys and wait for them to develop, by the time they develop, the other guys in the team who used to be the ones being developed, will be old. if they keep doing this, then the raps are just going to be a farm team.

    IMO, we cant keep getting guys and developing them and get them to be the focal point of the team. ALL the players have to develop at the same pace, otherwise, one comes up and sticks out against the others, that player will leave. Bosh, Tmas, Carter....go figure. Develop the team, create chemistry and wins will come.

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    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I agree with Mango. Eventhough 2 years seems to be far-fetched, 2 years should be the end all be all.
    You cant wait for 5 years. Amir will be 28, DD 25, Jose 35, bargs, 28. if they become a contender in 5 years then yeah thats worth it, but to reach the playoffs or even the 2nd round, that would be missing the target.
    if they keep getting young guys and wait for them to develop, by the time they develop, the other guys in the team who used to be the ones being developed, will be old. if they keep doing this, then the raps are just going to be a farm team.

    IMO, we cant keep getting guys and developing them and get them to be the focal point of the team. ALL the players have to develop at the same pace, otherwise, one comes up and sticks out against the others, that player will leave. Bosh, Tmas, Carter....go figure. Develop the team, create chemistry and wins will come.
    Well said. I believe that if Colangelo is going to make a good impact on the team (and he must) then he has to has to has to get first round draft picks with whatever deals he makes. TRading our "bad players" (as they have been called) will not bring back good players. That is the only way we can improve.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    The more horrible call was Babcock not trading the 7th, 16th pick and MoPete for the 4th pick.
    He would have just drafted Hoffa at 4 anyway...

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote ihatehaters wrote: View Post
    He would have just drafted Hoffa at 4 anyway...
    That wasn't the Araujo draft. That was the year before.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I don't agree with many of the points.

    5 years? Maybe. Who knows.

    T-mac did not want to re-sign here.

    BC has 2 GM awards in 9 seasons of being a GM to prove he is a good start at management. He has made some blunders, but his record has more winners, and not easy winners like drafting John Wall or Kevin Durant. The identity and franchise the last two years was built around one Chris Bosh. He is gone. The team is obviously taking on a new identity - younger, athletic, push the ball. It is definitely unconventional building around Bargnani but D'Antoni has been unconventional with a lot of success. Unfortunately, dealing with Kobe and Duncan has been a thorn in his side.

    There is talent but no there is no franchise talent. Bargnani is a good second option, great third option. Davis is raw but promising. Weems is useless. Amir is great off the bench. Bayless is showing some real promise, maybe not greatness but very good nonetheless. People tend to forget about these guys coming out of college after 1 year and then after 3 years pro, they are really college seniors. I am losing faith on anything great from DD - if he can be included to get OJ Mayo, do it! The problem the Raptors have had is since Bargnani they haven't drafted high. The lower end of the lottery is the ultimate kick in the balls - not good enough for playoffs, not bad enough to get some real prospects. There is a lot of complimentary talent on this team - there are no go-to guys and certainly no franchise player (of which there are really only 5-6 in the game with 2 playing on the same team!).

    Free agency is probably not the place to find your franchise player but you can certainly add some pieces. Cap space is a necessity. Look at Portland with Roy and Aldrige, WSH with Arenas, PHI with Brand and AI to name a couple - mediocre teams with no cap space and bad contracts nobody wants to take on.

    I might agree there is five years between playoff apperances for the Raps but I do not agree with 5 more years.

    This thread is a rant over a young team that is struggling to perform consistently and has of late struggled with 2 key injuries.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Dec 17th, 2010 at 02:29 PM.

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    It seems like everyone who replies seems to think 5 years is too long before the Raptors begin competing. When I mean the Raptors are done for at least 5 years it will be before they compete for a championship or at least contending. Not necessarily elite level like the Lakers or Boston but next level like the Magic,Mavs,Spurs ect ect. Right now there are about 10 teams in that conversation, how long before the Raptors can get there? More or less than 5 years?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote ibzilla wrote: View Post
    It seems like everyone who replies seems to think 5 years is too long before the Raptors begin competing. When I mean the Raptors are done for at least 5 years it will be before they compete for a championship or at least contending. Not necessarily elite level like the Lakers or Boston but next level like the Magic,Mavs,Spurs ect ect. Right now there are about 10 teams in that conversation, how long before the Raptors can get there? More or less than 5 years?
    i dont think you can really tell. if we land a gem in the draft, or BC is able to convince 2 primed superstars to join the team then who knows, we might contend next year. if we're sticking with the same team plus a defensive C and a shot-making SF, id say 3 years.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with many of the points.

    5 years? Maybe. Who knows.

    T-mac did not want to re-sign here.

    BC has 2 GM awards in 9 seasons of being a GM to prove he is a good start at management. He has made some blunders, but his record has more winners, and not easy winners like drafting John Wall or Kevin Durant. The identity and franchise the last two years was built around one Chris Bosh. He is gone. The team is obviously taking on a new identity - younger, athletic, push the ball. It is definitely unconventional building around Bargnani but D'Antoni has been unconventional with a lot of success. Unfortunately, dealing with Kobe and Duncan has been a thorn in his side.

    There is talent but no there is no franchise talent. Bargnani is a good second option, great third option. Davis is raw but promising. Weems is useless. Amir is great off the bench. Bayless is showing some real promise, maybe not greatness but very good nonetheless. People tend to forget about these guys coming out of college after 1 year and then after 3 years pro, they are really college seniors. I am losing faith on anything great from DD - if he can be included to get OJ Mayo, do it! The problem the Raptors have had is since Bargnani they haven't drafted high. The lower end of the lottery is the ultimate kick in the balls - not good enough for playoffs, not bad enough to get some real prospects. There is a lot of complimentary talent on this team - there are no go-to guys and certainly no franchise player (of which there are really only 5-6 in the game with 2 playing on the same team!).

    Free agency is probably not the place to find your franchise player but you can certainly add some pieces. Cap space is a necessity. Look at Portland with Roy and Aldrige, WSH with Arenas, PHI with Brand and AI to name a couple - mediocre teams with no cap space and bad contracts nobody wants to take on.

    I might agree there is five years between playoff apperances for the Raps but I do not agree with 5 more years.

    This thread is a rant over a young team that is struggling to perform consistently and has of late struggled with 2 key injuries.
    Hear here! All those saying Pritchard is available should look at what he built - while drafting nice "stars" he has a middle road player in Aldridge (I do like his game), a perennial med bed Oden, freshly long term signed B.Roy who is breaking down and at a young age playing like in his early 30's but add in complaining and now untradeable. They have half their cap tied up in Aldridge and Roy for the next 5yrs, a pile of money on Miller, and Camby and Oden. ($50M in those 5 players next yr alone and 3 may be in the locker room every game, although very likely Oden is not offered his QO). $50M! Roy no longer wants to play with Miller, Rudy F wants to leave north america all together. The team is a mess and can no longer be held up as a shining star.

    Forget Pritchard. Don't want him.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Maleko wrote: View Post
    Hear here! All those saying Pritchard is available should look at what he built - while drafting nice "stars" he has a middle road player in Aldridge (I do like his game), a perennial med bed Oden, freshly long term signed B.Roy who is breaking down and at a young age playing like in his early 30's but add in complaining and now untradeable. They have half their cap tied up in Aldridge and Roy for the next 5yrs, a pile of money on Miller, and Camby and Oden. ($50M in those 5 players next yr alone and 3 may be in the locker room every game, although very likely Oden is not offered his QO). $50M! Roy no longer wants to play with Miller, Rudy F wants to leave north america all together. The team is a mess and can no longer be held up as a shining star.

    Forget Pritchard. Don't want him.
    I agree with POR's current position and the fact they are sort of screwed - unable to rebuild because they can't tear it down.

    However, I'm not sure about Pritchard. Oden was the bet 29 out of 30 GM's would have made. I'm not sure his knee history was an issue as were Roy's. Also, Durant was definitely going to be good but nobody thought this good - everyone gave him sh!t about his skinny frame. Aldridge was a great pick up in a trade with Chicago for Thomas. Roy was a good move for Foye as Foye has not amounted for much.

    Where things get interesting is from what I understand, Pritchard was not allowed to do things his way, 100%. I can't remember the guy's name but he was Paul Allen's right hand man who had issues with Pritchard. There was another guy, Penn I believe, who was the salary cap guru for POR - he as on the draft coverage last year. He was fired before Pritchard for what I recall as philosophical differences. One of the big issues, again only from my recollection, was Roy extension. I think Pritchard was for playing a little more hard ball and bringing up the health concerns - Allen and his 'trusted' guy gave the max extension with no questions asked. If I have any of the above wrong, please let me know.

    I think any team would be lucky to have Pritchard as a GM but I'm very happy with BC for the next year or two.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree with POR's current position and the fact they are sort of screwed - unable to rebuild because they can't tear it down.

    However, I'm not sure about Pritchard. Oden was the bet 29 out of 30 GM's would have made. I'm not sure his knee history was an issue as were Roy's. Also, Durant was definitely going to be good but nobody thought this good - everyone gave him sh!t about his skinny frame. Aldridge was a great pick up in a trade with Chicago for Thomas. Roy was a good move for Foye as Foye has not amounted for much.

    Where things get interesting is from what I understand, Pritchard was not allowed to do things his way, 100%. I can't remember the guy's name but he was Paul Allen's right hand man who had issues with Pritchard. There was another guy, Penn I believe, who was the salary cap guru for POR - he as on the draft coverage last year. He was fired before Pritchard for what I recall as philosophical differences. One of the big issues, again only from my recollection, was Roy extension. I think Pritchard was for playing a little more hard ball and bringing up the health concerns - Allen and his 'trusted' guy gave the max extension with no questions asked. If I have any of the above wrong, please let me know.

    I think any team would be lucky to have Pritchard as a GM but I'm very happy with BC for the next year or two.
    Agreed. I think we tend to think that BC is a hotshot, collar poppin, godfather wannabe, but what some dont realize is his connections are pretty deep within the NBA. His dad runs the US team, he has deep connections with phoenix/kerr, he's tight with masai in denver and he was with phoenix when danny ainge (celtics GM) was coach.

    I mean if he was able to trade araujo and turkoglu, 2 of the most unwanted players in the nba, then to me he's a GOD.

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    And don't forget Pritchard was the GM when Portland almost signed Turk for only 3million less.

    I think a lot of how good we're gonna be depends on how players progress, which is very hard to predict.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Pritchard won't be going anywhere for cheap. Someone's gonna have to pay through the nose for him.
    Compared to Jerry West, Kevin Pritchard would be a lot cheaper.

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    Quote smushmush wrote: View Post
    Compared to Jerry West, Kevin Pritchard would be a lot cheaper.
    I wouldn't trust Jerry West to operate my remote. The guy is like a 103 years old and he wasn't so great near the end of his tenure with the Grizz.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    ... and just to pile it on Doc Rivers wasn't considered a "great coach" before the big 3. The entire city of Boston wanted him fired and Pierce had issues with him. If it weren't for his boy, DA, he'd of been canned long before KG was available.

    I don't love BC but he's done pretty well IMO. You may not like some of the contracts he's handed out but he \'s not afraid of a bad contract. See the example of one Hedo Turkoglu.

    This is a throw away year for the Raps, they are rebuilding from the ground up with very little to work with. They don't have an expiring Ray Allen or a ready to be resigned Rashard Lewis to trade into the top end of the lotto with. They will build incrementally. I mean DeRozans game has improved a lot. No he can't shoot, yes he disappears but he's finally got a solid role on the team and is getting touches. I think he looks worse than he is because of his lack of an outside shot and the fact that he plays on a team of guys who don't command the oppositions respect. The whole team, except #7, is easily guarded one on one.

    Ed Davis is exactly what we needed at the spot we drafted him at: High IQ, long, quick, defensive minded (my fav part). Put any of the top 3 wing players in this draft beside him (if there is a draft this year) and we're suddenly a team on the rise. Package some of the young, moderately priced talent with a pick (or an italian!) and you'll be able to poach a decent vet or two. Remember this is a very young team and young teams don't grow old together: they get traded.

    I'm loving this year because there ain't isht to lose and we aren't tied to a rock like Arenas (or Roy) contract.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    ... and just to pile it on Doc Rivers wasn't considered a "great coach" before the big 3. The entire city of Boston wanted him fired and Pierce had issues with him. If it weren't for his boy, DA, he'd of been canned long before KG was available.
    The most forgotten truth in recent basketball history. There is no doubt he is a good coach, though. Just another example that winning cures all.

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